I happen to work for a newspaper, and believe me ... there's a difference between the in-and-out, day-after-day job of writing for a newpaper -- your Times instance, which is more of a craft -- and the fiction writing that, say, Annie Proulx or Ernest Hemingway or Norman Mailer have done. Granted, not all fiction writing rises to the level of art, but I speak from 20 years of experience when I tell you that there is a difference between the two.
Writing can be a craft. It can also be an art.
Yes, I think we are in agreement. I wrote:
I don't see it as any different from any other craft - there's the potential for technical excellence as well as brilliant art.
I was not saying writing cannot be art, just that it doesn't have to be. I can go buy a cheap particle-board dresser from Ikea and wouldn't call it art, but a beautifully carved antique dresser might be considered a work of art. I was not saying writing cannot be art and not sure why my post was interpreted that way, but just to clarify: writing can be art, but doesn't have to be.
I don't consider pornography to be art, BTW, so I guess I consider myself more of a technical craftsperson than an artist, though I do write non-pornographic short stories which I hope fall more into the category of "art" though of course, only my reader can be the judge of that.
Starling- 11-13-2007
I definitely agree with Miss Violet that writing could do with a lot of demystifying. It seems that writing is always either getting elevated or belittled; it's a mystic art or it's a waste of time. People tend to forget that it's not just plucking stories out of the atmosphere.
Either way, I think it does come down to hard work more than inspiration. Inspiration helps... but considering how fickle one's creativity can be, in the long run, the day-to-day work and practice is what makes a writer. In my opinion, anyway.
Armchair Elvis- 11-14-2007
I think it all comes down to achieving a fine balance between the art and the technique. I read a lot of stories where the writing is fantastic, but from a reader's point of view it's hard to understand because of some technical problem or other -- spacing, paragraphs, structure.
A beta reader can improve on stuff like that tenfold. Even if they're just asking questions (and not discussing the writing on a deeper level), it kickstarts you to question and investigate what you're doing every step of the way.
Purely technical writing is all very well and good, but a dry essay or article is made so much better if the author can transmit passion and integrity through art, through little inventive details.
By balance, I mean getting both facets to complement each other. I could read a perfectly structured story that was as boring as All-Bran, and I could read a story brimming with fantastic descriptions that weren't fully realised because the story was hard to read.
OldHamster- 11-15-2007
What Elvis said. And a segue into a question that's sort of related, about balance.
I'm fairly new to writing fanfic -- well, House fic anyway; I did write a collection of fics on another show a few years back -- and I'm struggling with trying to strike a balance between avoiding cliches and veering out of character.
Where is the fine line between cliche and canon? I've read some excellent observations here and elsewhere (Sheep's come to mind) criticizing/making fun of the overuse of cliches in fanfic. But things become cliches because they're true: House limps. People roll their eyes and sigh because House says/does outrageous things. House sighs because people with lower IQs than his try his patience. House does have gorgeous blue eyes.
I find myself using all of the above in my fic, but I like to think I use them sparingly and appropriately -- I wouldn't write "House studied the patient's X-ray with his intense blue eyes," but I would make mention of their intensity and blueness in a romantic scene. I don't use the L word in every sentence describing House going from point A to point B -- but it does creep in there on occasion. The fic I'm working on now has one sigh (from House) and one eye roll (from Cuddy) and one limping reference -- so far. And I have managed to avoid the Clattering Cane in all my fics.
I guess I've become extremely self-conscious about using any cliches at all because Sheep and others I respect hold them in such low regard. But they keep jumping around in my head like little Jack Russell terriers saying, "Use me! Pick me! I FIT here, dammit!"
So I guess, my question is: Where's the line? A limping House with to-die-for blue eyes is cliche, but a nonlimping House with ordinary eyes is not House. A Cuddy who rolls her eyes at House's lewd comments is cliche, but a Cuddy who slaps him or sticks out her tongue at his remarks is OOC.
I can recognize overused and inappropriately used cliches fairly easily; in fact, I'm in the process of MST-ing a fic that's a virtual Cliche-o-Rama. But every time I read over one of mine and see a reference to limping, sighing or eye rolling, I cringe and think, "OMG, am I one of THEM? Those badfic authors who get no respect?" (Of course, as a Ham shipper I realize my fics will get no respect from many for that reason alone!)
Sorry for the ramble. Thoughts?
blackmare- 11-15-2007
OldHamster, I know what you mean.
I try to get around the issue by using different words or descriptions for the cliche. Such as Cuddy putting one hand up in the air, waving it in dismissal as she turns and walks away. She's probably rolling her eyes and you get the feeling that she is, without having to use the actual cliche.
For House's intense stare I once had another character think that it looked like House was ready to whip out a scalpel and dissect them, on the spot. It read a lot better than "House stared at him with that amazingly intense look in his eyes."
Corgigirl- 11-15-2007
Because those around him are used to House's rather remarkable eye color, I find it works best to mention it as a natural part of House's general emotions, health or demeanor at the moment.
I had a line in a story in which Cuddy visited House after the infarction and she noted that his eyes were the only part of him that looked alive. He'd been seriously ill and was angry and depressed, so that vivid blue stood out in contrast to how the rest of him looked.
March301- 11-15-2007
I think if your writing is good in general no one's really going to notice if you put it in a few cliches. I mean, Cuddy's going to be impatient with House, House is going to be impatient with people who are acting stupid, and Wilson's going to seem tired and weary. 'Twas ever thus. I think putting cliches in fanfic isn't necessarily the mark of a bad writer-- you just have to know when and where and how often you can put them in.
I do try to avoid "House limped" unless it has something to do with the plot of my story; I assume everyone who's seen at least one episode of House knows that the man limps when he walks. In fact, it's such common knowledge that sometimes I forget and then I have to check myself: (Is he really going to walk up those stairs so fast? No.) Instead I like to imagine what he might be doing with his cane. (Shut up, get your minds out of the gutter...) On the show, he puts it in many positions and I've noticed that in the more dramatic scenes House tends to grip it tightly.
This was a very boring ramble on my own interpretation, but I think sometimes you can focus on what House is doing with that cane instead of focusing on the limp. How he's leaning on it often indicates his mood, IMHO.
enigma731- 11-17-2007
I think all of the characters can be read through posture, not just in terms of current emotions, but in terms of relationships as well. A few weeks ago, after Guardian Angels first aired, I had a very interesting discussion with a friend about how Cameron seems to have picked up some aspects of Chase's more laid-back movements (i.e. leaning on House's desk).
As far as cliches in descriptions, I think there's a time and place for them. Granted, I tend to be rather minimalistic when it comes to descriptions in general, but I think there's also a point where avoiding descriptive cliches becomes detrimental. Assume that the audience knows things about characters, but it's still nice to see the occasional canon in-joke or typical mention thrown in, particularly if the plot is something that's rather far away from the material the show would ordinarily deal with. I also find that it helps to limit descriptions to when something's different than what would be assumed in canon, or when an observation of a physical trait by a character signifies something about their mental state.
Poeia- 11-17-2007
I don't think there's anything wrong with saying House limps. I once complained about it in another fanfic thread, but that was in reference to writers who use it every time House moves from one place to another on foot. Limping is one way to describe this movement. So is walking, striding, stomping, etc. (It's actually worse when a writer obviously forgot that the man limps.)
But the cliche that's currently driving me nuts is "House popped a couple of Vidodin." I see it frequently in both fics and in the episode transcripts. Most of the time, when House takes Vicodin, he shakes the bottle into his palm and puts his palm over his mouth. We don't see the pill(s). It could be one or (given the size of that man's hands) ten.
I can only think of three times we've actually seen what he swallowed. In Cursed, he's hunting for something while Cuddy tries to get him to take the case. It turns out to be one Vicodin, which he eats.
The last shot of Season 1 had him toss a single Vicodin into the air and catch it in his mouth and that was repeated at the end of Family when he tosses a pill and says "good boy."
Have I missed any?
blue- 11-17-2007
Have I missed any?
He smashed one and sprinkled it on his sandwich. But I guess that doesn't count as 'popping' one.
extra_cat- 11-17-2007
I don't think there's anything wrong with saying House limps. I once complained about it in another fanfic thread, but that was in reference to writers who use it every time House moves from one place to another on foot. Limping is one way to describe this movement. So is walking, striding, stomping, etc. (It's actually worse when a writer obviously forgot that the man limps.)
It doesn't bother me to see "House limped" either. Because he does. But repetitive use of any verb, adjective, or adverb weakens the writing.
http://thesaurus.reference.com/ Use it. It is your friend.
Poeia- 11-17-2007
Have I missed any?
He smashed one and sprinkled it on his sandwich. But I guess that doesn't count as 'popping' one.
I think it does. But thats ONE. The fics always say "a couple." We've never seen him take more than one at a time (although he agrees with Cameron that he did so before the speech in Role Model.) My guess is that he takes one and, if that doesn't work well enough, he takes another sooner than he should, not that he's taking fistfuls of them at a time.
enigma731- 11-17-2007
Two at a time is an acceptable dosage, though. But I agree, we haven't actually seen that.
Axilotl- 11-18-2007
I guess I've become extremely self-conscious about using any cliches at all because Sheep and others I respect hold them in such low regard. But they keep jumping around in my head like little Jack Russell terriers saying, "Use me! Pick me! I FIT here, dammit!"
I know this feeling! My first ever House fic draft had about five uses of the word limp in 12,000 words of fic (two were in dialogue - does it count as a cliche if it's not description?) and my beta pinged me on it pretty hard. I was new to the fandom and hadn't read much fic as I was trying to keep unspoiled (as a Brit), so it was a shock to me that limp had almost been vetoed; basically it shouldn't be used if you want to have credibility.
After the burn of humiliation had gone, I cut three of them, leaving what I considered the non-negotiable, Jack Russell usages. In a story which dealt with issues surrounding House's disability, I found it impossible to not use the word.
I'm still not sure how I feel about it. Being new to the fandom and fic, it almost felt like a cabal had taken decisions on word choice and it was out of my hands. I didn't like that feeling, if you can't use limp with regard to House's gait, what else was going to be nixed? Was there a group out there ready, waiting to pounce?
"She used the word blue in the same sentence as the word eyes - rip her to shreds!"
It made me a touch paranoid.
I know now that wasn't how it was, but it was intimidating. If you are a decent enough writer you can have these cliches (irreducible truths?) in your fic and not sound like it's been cut and paste from the Janet and John version of House. Make sure that they aren't the only thing getting attention, but I agree that to ignore them, never mention them and pretend they don't exist is not a realistic approach.
So I guess, my question is: Where's the line?
I think it's like the "Am I mad?" question. If you can ask the question, you're probably ok. If you care enough to know there is a line and worry about where it is, then that self-awareness is half the battle. My beta is tough but fair and I know she'll kick my arse if I slip too far into cliche chasm or get lazy. But I reserve the right to use any word, in any context, because I know what I want it to say. If my beta advises a change and I think it makes it better, great, but if the original word, be it limp, or blue, or roll, is the best word, if it is the only word, then I'll use it and trust that my own judgment is also worth listening to.
blackmare- 11-18-2007
Nicely written, Axilotl.
I'd have to agree with that -- that ultimately, if you're aware that cliches can be a problem and you're asking how to get around them, you're probably fine. And that it's got to be a matter of your own judgment, ultimately. Sometimes you need the cliche because it happens to be true.
And I'd like to add that I think it's possible to see a cliche in the road, try to avoid it, overcorrect and wind up in the ditch. What I mean is that sometimes the thing that replaces the cliche is an ungainly phrase that's far more distracting and annoying than the cliche would have been.