Water's October, Right?: House Fanfiction Discussion

I love it when they say "I'll only update when I get 20 reviews!" .....Those red flags are a wonderful thing, aren't they? They are indeed. I came across one on ff.net once and ranted on my LJ about newbie mistakes. Fic is not a shakedown business. Either write or don't. But don't post what you don't intend to finish. If you posted it in public then you clearly intended for others to read it. And you most likely want some form of recognition for it. Once you put a story out there for others to read, as far as I'm concerned you have a duty to finish. And don't expect rave reviews for a half-finished product! I wouldn't tell my floor guy "great job" if he only put down half my floor. I generally don't leave full feedback until a story is done, though I'll occasionally comment and offer up a hint of critique if I like where the author's going with something. As for the beta question: I never put out a story without it having gone through an editor first (and as an editor in RL, I can tell you that I have yet to meet a writer who didn't need an edit). Aside from the valuable advice you'll get on how a fic can be perceived, a beta will also catch things you never will because you're too close to the material. Also note that good writer/editor relationships don't blossom out of nowhere. Not everyone can work with everyone else, and everyone's skill level is different. So it may take you a while to find the beta that's right for you. I usually do professional level edits when I work with someone and find that many newbies are not prepared for the red ink that a seasoned fic writer won't even blink at. If you're only writing for a hobby and don't want that sort of beta, that's cool. You just have to find a beta who fits your needs.

Once you put a story out there for others to read, as far as I'm concerned you have a duty to finish. And don't expect rave reviews for a half-finished product! I wouldn't tell my floor guy "great job" if he only put down half my floor. Yup! You'd be doing your readers and yourself a horrible disservice by leaving a multi-chapter piece unfinished. That analogy was great! I know of a lot of people who save their feedback until a particular story is complete, which makes sense in a lot of ways. I'll comment on a work in progress if I think it will benefit the author, help them construct future chapters. But it also makes sense to comment on the piece as a whole.

And don't expect rave reviews for a half-finished product! I wouldn't tell my floor guy "great job" if he only put down half my floor. I generally don't leave full feedback until a story is done, though I'll occasionally comment and offer up a hint of critique if I like where the author's going with something. Personally I've written multi-chapter fics that were influenced by comments to early chapters. While I've generally got an idea of where something is going -- and in some cases I'm a chapter ahead in writing when I post a chapter -- I've never had a complete 100-page plus fic completely written in advance of posting the first chapter. I know some people do, but to me one of the fun things of writing something that's multi-chaptered is that it becomes an organic thing. A question in the comments may spur a comment later. In "Friends, Family ..." for instance someone once asked what Blythe would have thought of Steve McQueen. I thought: "Hmm. Good question" and I wrote that scene. That's not to say that if someone says they hate a direction a story is taking that I'll change it, but it might help me better define a plot point. And it's not to say I'd ever stop a WIP without finishing it -- one of my pet peeves -- but it's nice to hear people say that they're reading it and like it.

And to those people with Master's Degrees, I have this story to share ... namely that I have worked alongside many people with Masters who start to get uppity about their degree. At which point I turn to them and say: "I've got a bachelor's degree from a mid-sized public university. We're working at the same job and I get on the front page more often. What, exactly did that extra degree get you?" Some of the best writers I knew had almost no formal training in English or journalism. (Yes, I'm tired of Northwestern and Missouri grads waving their degrees at me. Why do you ask?) I hope you weren't thinking I was getting uppity. I've got a BA from the Honors Program of a state college here in Massachusetts. I stopped working on the MA when it became clear I was not going to go into education at this point in my life, and that I could earn way more money writing/editing/proofreading. One of my fave writers is my best friend, who writes Advent Children fanfic (right now). She has no formal training in writing, no degree, and works in a smoke shop... but her imagination is second to none. I would not be surprised if she went on to become another Rowling. She's that good. But she's not a technician, so when she does start working on that epic, I'll be right there to edit it. :wink:

If I may take a moment to praise one of our board members with glowing words and fond thoughts-- Roga is one of my best betas ever. I don't ask her for typo advice or grammar stuff, although she lets me know whenever she finds an error. My writing is clean for the most part and that's not what I need in a critter. (Critter's the word I use in RL, short for critiquer, but sounds so much more interesting than editor, don't you think?) What Roga offers me is questions. She held my hand all through Percussion, asking, "Wait, why's Foreman doing this now?" and "What's the backstory on this?" and "What's House feeling about this?" If I hadn't thought out my characterization, she called me on it. If I needed to ramble, she was there to listen. If I wondered if a character would do or say a given thing, I could ask, and she'd give an opinion. A beta reader is not an editor, a fixer of errors; a beta reader is someone who asks the right questions and makes the story stronger, the characterizations more solid, the plot more effective. And mostly when my betas ask me questions, I just have to stop and sit back and think about it and the answer is there, but the beta's the one who knew to ask the question in the first place. For instance, with Tympani, Roga asked, "Whose POV are you in?" when I whined that the narrative wasn't flowing. A simple question, yeah, but instead of answering directly, I thought, "Wait, am I in the right POV? Whose story am I telling? Should I be in House's head instead of Foreman's?" Most of my problems with the writing disappeared when I switched POVs. Roga, in short, knows which questions to ask, which is amazing. But none of you ask her to beta for you. She's mine. I think a beta reader should be someone you know. Someone who's willing to point out the rough spots, and someone you're willing to hear that from. You have to trust the person. Parrot and Lovelythings are also betas of mine, because I love their writing but also because I trust what they have to say about language and about story structure. We have similar beliefs about what makes a story good. And finally, a good beta reader knows that it's not their story, and if you don't follow their advice, it's because you've thought it through and made a decision. The trust between you really has to be mutual. It's amazing how much better my stories have been since I've gotten some betas. Now I really wouldn't consider posting unless I'd had someone read it over. There's a certain professionalism to having betas, but also a reassurance (for you, in your own mind) that the story is of high quality, whether it garners comments or no.

As for the beta question: I never put out a story without it having gone through an editor first (and as an editor in RL, I can tell you that I have yet to meet a writer who didn't need an edit). Aside from the valuable advice you'll get on how a fic can be perceived, a beta will also catch things you never will because you're too close to the material. I started writing before I met anyone else in the fandom; I guess I could have asked my best friend, but she doesn't watch the show. That brings me to the next question: how did you meet your beta(s)?

Okay, somehow that posted twice. So I'll say this: I think different people beta differently. Ultimately, I'd be looking for what you have, Zulu. I'd want someone to ask me the right questions to make the story stronger. I need someone as strong as I am, someone who isn't afraid to push, someone who knows the characters... that person may be out there (or in here) and maybe some day I'll build a relationship with that person. Until then, I'm going to keep posting my stuff -- without apology.

Don't know about anyone else but I've never met the writer I work with. She asked me via email because I kept posting comments on her WIP and when her previous reader pulled out unexpectedly she asked me because she said I thought like she did and posted comments about the story that kept her on track.

Agreed, zulu. I think it's wonderful when my own beta reader brings up questions and makes me stop to think about those kinds of details. I'm equally appreciative when the questions are about big, character issues and smaller details in metaphors or images I chose to use. I'll never forget one particular conversation that went on about whether or not Wilson ever visited saunas. Out of context here, it doesn't seem like a big thing, but it made me think about what I'd written, about Wilson as a character. I adore my beta reader. As to how I met her, I posted a request for a beta in one of the LJ communities and she replied. I was lucky to find a beta in short amount of time that I got along so well with. She wasn't afraid to be frank with me right off the bat, which I really appreciated. I really enjoy working with her.

I got my beta Auditrix from the old House fans board where I first started posting "Tracking Time." She gave specific concrit and offered to beta. I didn't post anything without having it go through her for the first year or so, then her real life took her mostly off line. Since then I've bounced ideas off of people, (including sherlock21/npkedit for an upcoming story), gotten feedback from the LJ friends list, and edit and fix stories as people tell me about errors, but I don't work with a beta regularly now. But when I'm writing, I'm still thinking about what Auditrix would say.

Speaking for myself, I view -- and use -- a beta differently than an editor. I've been writing professionally for more than 20 years now, and view my editor as someone who oversees grammar, editing, catching mistakes, etc. Hmmm. I guess we view the process differently. I use beta and editor interchangeably. A good editor should do all of the things that a beta does...and more. I use my editors for all things...from continuity to technical matters (and I do the same, as well when I edit). I do tend to use several different editors throughout a story, depending on the expertise that I need and the size of the work. Remember that editors do come in different flavors. That brings me to the next question: how did you meet your beta(s)? Ironically, I got my main beta, minisinoo, because I edited for her. I sent her some detailed critique on an X-Men story she wrote about 7 years ago. We exchanged a lot of e-mail on everything from her stories to writing techniques to plotting, and she eventually asked me to edit for her. When the time came, I asked her to do the same for me. Luckily, she knows House, even though she doesn't write for this fandom.

Daisylily is my beta soulmate, and I started working with her because she left a small concrit on my second fanfic. One thing she does other than what's already been mentioned is she gives specific feedback on what works. It's so unbelievably satisfying to get that specific positive feedback - huge boost to keep going, and to try to do more of what's right instead of only less of what's wrong. :D Sometimes if I'm branching out into something different, I'll also ask other people for feedback - doesn't hurt to get multiple opinions.

One of the most technically difficult stories I've written is No Exit, dealing with House in rehab. While I have a strong scientific background, a lot of the medicine and psychology of dealing with pain patients in rehab was outside my comfort zone. Dear Silja had been reading the story and kindly offered her expertise and really was helpful in guiding me through the nuts and bolts of what House might have been going through; what meds to have his docs prescribe for him and the side effects. She was great, and a wonderful advisor. There are a couple of other writers who've happened into my work and have been great help in finding the right paths for my characters. It was never anything formal, just happened. My professional writing always has an editor, both for copy and content. I tend to edit as I write (it's how I was taught when I was a young writer, and my editor in chief insisted that we all be excellent first draft writers. We always seemed to be on-deadline). With fanfic, I tend to let my mind go and let my fingers do the walking, meandering where they might. No Beta. Rightly or wrongly, it's how I write. I've read some beta-ed fanfic that is awful; so a beta reader is no guarantee that the story will be any more readable--or any more well written.

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