I didn't realize how stale the show was getting (to me) until the changeup in format and having new characters to play House off of gave the show a whole new energy and vibe. You know, I wonder if I find the changes frustrating because they weren't actually different enough. I never found the show stale, and I don't find the new interactions particularly special yet. When I look at these characters on paper, this should be really noticeable and very, very different from the former ducklings - but instead I see House acting differently in a manner that doesn't always follow the logical path of his previous behavior, for no seemingly good reason (deciding not to open Thirteen's test results could be House trying to grow, but why rip down Kutner's Christmas decorations and suddenly decide to go scavenging for gifts?). I'm willing to give it time, especially with the season being broken up so weirdly. The writers for these characters also don't have the advantage of David Shore penning multiple episodes like he did in S1 to set up the relationship dynamics, which may also be a factor. I also didn't like the Survivor arc because it swiftly became like a reality show that suffered from its own obviousness, which usually means a bland season. (The bits I did like tended to transcend that.) It was like watching this season's Project Runway, where Christian would have had to send his models down the runway naked to lose, or this season's Dancing With The Stars, where Kristi Yamaguchi is going to have to like, eat a puppy in order to lose. (Watch. Tonight she'll be voted out and I will have to eat my hat.) At the same time, I think DS makes a really good point in noting that it isn't realistic to just keep the same bunch of people around forever. Not only that, but the characters of the ducklings seemed designed for growth, and eventually growth requires taking a next step. But on that note, keeping them around feels like a problem, because if they were ready to move on...why didn't they actually have them move on? What they did with Foreman makes sense, but in the case of Chase and Cameron, it seem like they really wanted to make a change but not take the actual risks of doing so, and that winds up feeling namby-pamby, when the show seemingly wants the audience to believe it's totally badass and nervy. (There could of course, be plain old contract reasons or something for doing so. But it still feels off.) ETA: For that matter, I see more people mentioning that they like Chase now than I did in the first two seasons, possibly because he was so clearly changed by the end of S3. So it's a bit like, hey wait, that was getting interesting...and now it's gone. Similarly, Cameron apparently made some impulsive decisions in getting together with Chase and quitting her job, so it begged the question of what was going on there. It seems odd to think that DS would think his audience wouldn't be curious about what was happening there, when time had clearly been spent on pushing those characters in new directions. As to the issue of darkness, I found the first half of S3 really dark, but the show has always had its ups and downs in that regard. I mean, S2 had Autopsy, but it also had Forever, a get-out-the-Gillettes occasion if ever there was one. They seem to be trying for more of a balance and less of an onslaught this season.

And yes, the fellows could have advanced to just full time positions within the diagnostics department, but then you still have the issue of House not having the fresh blood to bounce ideas off of and work off of, so they still would have needed to bring in fresh faces eventually or they'd risk real staleness. Perhaps making the shift to start the fourth season was too early in some ways, but I think the fifth season would have been too late. The thing about cast changes on shows that are set up to have stable casts (in other words, not Lost) is that they usually only come about when there is turmoil behind the scenes. I think one of the best examples of that is the show M*A*S*H, a show that basically thrived on cast changes, but those changes only came about when the actor chose to leave, usually because they were unhappy about something. In the long run, it turned out to be fine, because bringing in brand new characters (and they always made a point to make the new characters the opposite of the old ones) brought new life to the show and new story lines and it was great. What's going on with our show is that TPTB realize that there are only so many ways you can spin a human drama with the same six people in the same situation for a long period of time before it becomes too repetitive or too boring. Therefore, they made the right call in casting out CCF, and I think they did it in a way that played well to the personalities of the characters. I also think that the way they brought in the new cast worked as well to the character of House - played up his "drama queen" quirks. What happened against them, though, were two things: 1) The question of CCF, and 2) The Writers' Strike. 1) What happened here is that, really, other than searching for new story lines, there was no reason to lose these characters, nor these actors. In many ways, it would have been cruel to have just cast them out onto the streets when, really, their characters would have a lot more to say to House when put in different positions. Hence, now, they are all in some position of power, but they're still here. We can't get used to the new characters because we're still looking for some glimpse of the old characters. 2) For all we know, DS may have had some master plan to bring C&C back in effectively over the second half of S4, but the Writers' Strike screwed that up royally. Also, in these long interims, we as a fan base have had waay too much time to overanalyze the goings-on of these characters. I mean, think about how you reacted to something/someone when an episode first aired. Anything - Bitch, Thirteen, the games in general? Is it necessarily your same thought now? Probably not because we've talked it and rationalized it to death. So, we have to give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe they have a better idea of what's going on with the characters they created than we do, but that they haven't been given the chance to show us what's happening. I've been trying to play Devil's Advocate here, but I'm sure my arguments will be torn to bits. :roll: :lol:

And yes, the fellows could have advanced to just full time positions within the diagnostics department, but then you still have the issue of House not having the fresh blood to bounce ideas off of and work off of, so they still would have needed to bring in fresh faces eventually or they'd risk real staleness. Oh, I agree. I think that there could be a balance between the two. Hopefully they'll find it. I think it's totally necessary for House to have a new team and new people and I even find it fairly believable that one of the former fellows would be a part of the new team. I don't think the idea itself is bad or even flawed, I just think it's played out a little "off". I think it's far from a fatal problem, though. But definitely, the fandom is very varied in terms of its responses to almost everything, not just shippers. Oh, I'm not coming down on the shippers as being the only "offenders", I just personally think that that's the way he was leaning and couldn't bring himself to say it. It seems that the thing that most often comes up during press tours and critics events requires him or Katie (usually both) to do the whole "we're exploring *all* of the relationships!!!" nonsense (which usually winds up being true, but still manages to piss off each group, even if it's just a little bit). Maybe I'm actually being too hard on *him* and he wasn't thinking that at all, that's just what I get out of it. Consider that while some people think we're missing the lightness of the first season or two, others are bitching that it's all too light and there's not enough of House's inner turmoil. You're totally right. Everything's broken down into little groups of contradictory complaints.

amysusanne, I agree that a lot of desires for what people want for Chase and Cameron is out there on the Interweb. But I've found that there has often been a basic trust in TPTB -- "this is what I wanted but they brought it in a completely different direction and it turned out good" sort of thing. The mood seems to be different now. After 12 episodes they seem clueless as to how to re-incorporate C&C and they're not giving the fans of those two characters any hope for the future. And I think people are getting tired of trusting Shore & Co. to resolve it in any meaningful way. And his comparison between asking whether Chase and Cameron will become more involved again in the future and asking for a "nice" House makes me less trusting this time. I'm in the lucky group that would watch if Hugh Laurie were the only regular. But I like it best when he is interacting with characters who interest me. If I had a magic wand to make the writers do what I want with the supporting characters, I would bring Chase back, keep the relationship with Wilson growing and make Cuddy strong and intelligent again as she was in S1. I would also throw Foreman off the balcony (each season I have liked him less and less but by the end of his resignation arc -- which seemed to be about 15 episodes long -- I had grown to detest him.) If they'd stop trying to make Thirteen mysterious, she might interest me, but I'd prefer it if Amber had been hired as the new woman. And I don't care about Taub, Kutner or, for the most part, Cameron. If any or all of that happened, I'd be completely open to it being accomplished in any way David Shore saw fit.

The mood seems to be different now. After 12 episodes they seem clueless as to how to re-incorporate C&C and they're not giving the fans of those two characters any hope for the future. And I think people are getting tired of trusting Shore & Co. to resolve it in any meaningful way. And his comparison between asking whether Chase and Cameron will become more involved again in the future and asking for a "nice" House makes me less trusting this time. I don't think they're clueless. I think that they've placed Chase and Cameron where they want them to be. It's just not where some fans want them to be. David Shore clearly stated in the radio interview from a month or so ago that he believed that they were in positions which gave them different interactions with House. He was happy with where they were. Look at Chase's role in "Don't Ever Change." He had a reason to be there, and he gave good advice in his scenes with House drawn upon his experience with House. Or Chase's interactions with Foreman in "Games." Or when Cameron has reason to be there (providing the patient in "Games" or "The Right Stuff" or "Guardian Angels" through her contacts in the ER). And when they're not needed, (Cameron in "Don't Ever Change," they're not shoehorned in. Now I do think that there were some expectations that Cameron and Chase would be part of House's "team" in terms of the diagnostics department, rather than his team in general as in the people out there that House uses as he does Cuddy or Wilson. Maybe Shore and company always thought of House's team in a more macro scale, rather than the direct group of fellows, maybe he changed his mind as they scripted the episodes. Maybe I'm completely wrong and things will change completely in the next four episodes, but from what he's said so far, he feels that they've been incorporated as to his plan.

amysusanne, I agree that a lot of desires for what people want for Chase and Cameron is out there on the Interweb. But I've found that there has often been a basic trust in TPTB -- "this is what I wanted but they brought it in a completely different direction and it turned out good" sort of thing. Please don't think I'm being argumentative, but that's just not my experience. I can't count the number of times that David Shore and Katie Jacobs along with whichever writer got credit that week have been called idiots, morons, assholes, devils, etc. There's not a high level of trust in certain corners and that expands beyond just the usual shipper BS and into the entire show. Vogler, Stacy, Tritter and now the newbies combined with the various shipper angst...I've just seen them take a beating. At various points, before I just gave up even stopping on certain communities when I saw them on my flist, there have been at least one "goodbye cruel show" entry a week. It's usually a hollow threat (since people never seem to actually go anywhere), but there's a "you're killing my show" mentality out there that goes beyond that one example. I think Katie Jacobs takes a beating for both personal reasons that the posters have *and* their feelings towards the teasing she does at various times in the press and David Shore takes a beating because people feel he has somehow betrayed them. Honestly, you have your experience (which I'm not trying say is the least bit wrong) and I have mine and I'm sure five other people can come in and give five experiences completely different from ours. I think that's just the way things have broken down. I don't know why, but it's a very splintered fandom. I'm sure other shows have experienced this, but I've never really been a part of it.

Consider that while some people think we're missing the lightness of the first season or two, others are bitching that it's all too light and there's not enough of House's inner turmoil. I can only speak for myself, but I think I can legitimately complain about both! :) Season 1 wasn't all lightness by any stretch of the imagination, but House didn't seem nearly so miserable and short-tempered. I felt that he actually liked his team in Season 1, even though he didn't socialize with them. He didn't seem nearly so outrageous, and he maintained his dignity, for the most part. There was a lovely blend of angst and dry, subtle humor. Cut to Season 4... House in a do-rag, House handing out flowers, House organizing a "thong challenge," House organizing his teams by "danglers," House unable to think because he thinks Terzi is so beautiful, House caught thinking that Thirteen is "so hot," House and his "position on my penis" jokes, House blasting his guitar all over the hospital, and the list goes on and on. I don't care to see a return to the dark days of the Tritter arc, but I want to see House ponder ethical dilemmas again. I want to see him in quiet reflection again. I want to see him recover some of his dignity. Obviously, YMMV.

I don't care to see a return to the dark days of the Tritter arc, but I want to see House ponder ethical dilemmas again. I want to see him in quiet reflection again. I want to see him recover some of his dignity. Obviously, YMMV. I think you make an incredibly valid point. I can only speak for myself here, but one of the reasons I went along with the Survivor arc and immersed myself in it as much as I did was with the caveat that the minute he chose his team, House and co. would get back to "normal." Not everything being a test of the team, but actually for the patient. Yes, I realize each patient was essentially a metaphor for what was going on within the lives of the doctors, yet there was a focus on the patient and what the patient was going through, and what ramifications that would have. It seemed we were starting to get back to that in DEC, but of course, the Writers' Strike has screwed with everything, so it can't be all TPTB's respective faults.

I have enjoyed the ride with the show so even though certain things don't happen the way I want sometimes, I am still watching and being entertained. I'm addicted to the show. I feel bad for JM & JS in that their screentime has been diminished and can't say that I am enamored with the newbies, but that is the direction the show wants to go. I do hope that Jesse gets a little more screentime. I think he's talented and earned his spot. I understand the beef that some have because DS did say the old cast would be back after the newbies were decided. I interpretted that, and perhaps mistakenly, to mean that there would be significant screentime for them. That hasn't really panned out, except for Foreman. The writer's strike did get in the way so we really have no way of knowing what they had planned and they may have decided to change direction during the break. They do have that right and I want to be entertained so I put my trust in them that they know what they are doing. I do think DS should have chosen his words differently when he implied that we don't know what we want. I beg to differ and would like to think I am intelligent enough to know exactly what I want. But he has admitted he is like House so there you have it. Bluntness at it's best. My ideal situation would be lots of Cuddy but I am willing to settle for what I get. I don't think she will ever go anywhere so any screentime between her and House makes me happy. I'm just happy we are going to get new episodes of House.

You can argue with me -- I won't take it personally (unless you call me some of the above names.) You...you...you ETCETERA!!! :-) I actually go to a very limited number of communities. I'm a well educated adult and I get a headache just thinking about reading through things like the Fox boards. I can trudge through a lot of muck, but I do have to draw the line at the Fox boards. Even morbid curiosity usually isn't enough. The folks worth reading over there, imo, tend to also hang out in other places I read, so there's no need to go. I still have a number of "House" related communities on my lj flist because, honestly, if I unsub I probably wouldn't be let back in and I figure that if there's any chance I'd want to read them again in the future I might as well just stay put. Many others I removed entirely, though. I'm sure there's intelligence out there and even in the cases of a lot of things I don't like, it's just my opinion differing from theirs, but the rest of it...it's kind of painful and off putting and there's only so many times I can read someone wish actual death upon David or Katie. Oh I don't know maybe they have stopped watching, we cannot be certain of that. I'm sure some have, but others just keep going on and on and scream "I'm never watching this show again!" and then bitch in such detail the next week that there's no way they're not. Otoh, there are those who bitch in detail and *claim* they're not watching it, which are actually my favorites. I should be annoyed by that (and deep down I probably am), but I kind of enjoy it when it hits that point of hysterical ranting. The thing is that when DS and the producers say something in the interviews and the people that they are going to do this or we are going to to that then people will expect them to stay true to their word if not then don't say anything at all. That is common sense. It's also not something you should do, though. I honestly have no idea if other fandoms have the same problem (though the smaller ones I've been in in the past didn't), but nothing a showrunner or writer says should be taken as gospel because things happen. Stories don't work out. At the beginning of the season you can say that this is what you're going to do or this is where you're going and five episodes in it just simplly doesn't happen. All producers do the same thing at the beginning of each season when they're talking to the press and as a fan you're really not supposed to take anything they say as a promise, especially not a promise to you personally. If you don't have any intention on doing this or doing that then don't say anything at all and just say no comment. That is the correct thing to say not lead the audeince on because that is fabrication and maunipulation of the truth. Who says that they don't have the intention to go in the direction they say they are on Monday and on Friday find out that that's not something they can do? Again, I don't know why David Shore and Katie Jacobs take such a beating for this when it's common practice for everyone. To be fair, I'm sure that there *are* fandoms out there (I'd bet large sums of money that Josh Schwartz or Rob Thomas have experienced it) where the creative team gets called out for breaking promises, but where you say that it's common sense to take them at face value, I think it's common sense to expect that there's a certain fluidity to all of their plans. And to be completely fair, as I mentioned recently in another thread, there are definite instances where what's reported and what the producer or writer actually said are two different things. The recent "Returning Favorites" issue of TVG was very guilty of taking things that Josh Schwartz and Bryan Fuller said about their shows totally out of context and misunderstood jokes as being genuine spoilers and while, in this case, we're getting decent direct quotes from David Shore, in a lot of cases you really have to take some things with a grain of salt. If I hear Katie Jacobs say that House and Cameron are going to hook up then I'll take it far more seriously than if I hear Michael Ausiello say that Katie Jacobs *told* him that House and Cameron were going to hook up. Even then, though, I don't take it as an absolute because as scripts are written and episodes edited things can look different than they did when you wrote it on the board a month earlier.

I am not giving them a beating I am just simply stating that they should watch what they say because there are people who take it seriously. I don't, I never trusted the entertainment industry or the media, I always believe it when I see it on the tv screen with my two pairs of eyes. It is also common sense to stop teasing the audience about the different possabilitis if it is dead then leave it be don't bring it up again like they did with cameron in "Ugly" it is very embarrassing to have her like that. I always hold people accountable for what they say and do. Stories don't work out yes but you don't drag them on and on and on for all of eternity which continues to raise their hopes. I never take anything DS or KJ seriously, I believe it when I see it on the tv screen I am just speaking out for others since they get targeted a lot. I never trusted the entertianment industry or the media never have never will. I am from the older generation so I just view them differently and things are different from my era. I don't like getting my chain yanked