I find it impossible to conclude that tptb behind the show are saying that the ADs where exactly what House needed, that depression is indeed his "problem" and Wilson has finally "fixed" House by slipping him a prozac mickey. Nobody said they were. However, both DS and HL have said in interviews that House is depressed. (Sorry, I don't have links but I'm not making this up). 'Half-Wit' doesn't make much sense story-wise if House isn't depressed. Therefore, I believe House is depressed. It may be what you call a depressive personality and what Wilson calls "miserable", and I've said elsewhere that I think it's dysthymia, but he's not, er, non-depressed. For the record, if House were manic he wouldn't have been sleeping exceptionally well. Quite the opposite. And just because a medication has side effects doesn't mean it's not helping the patient.

Usually, after solving the puzzle he didn't care anymore about the patient. I really don't think you can put his telling Addie's parents about her suicide attempt down to the anti-depressants unless he hasn't done this sort of thing before when he was not on them--and he has. He made the effort on behalf of the not-a-dwarf girl with dwarf-mom not to let her own issue determine how her daughter lived her life. The puzzle was already solved then and he could have walked away and left it up to the girl and her mom whether she would take the growth hormone or not but he didn't. He went to the mom--after he had the solution to his puzzle--and challenged the mom's motivations and advocated for the girl to have the chance to be "normal". He had solved the mystery with Andi before he went to her to offer her the choice of not going through with the continuing treatments. The puzzle was solved already when he advocated to the dad to give his son the chance to become what he could even if he did lose his musical genius in Half-wit. He doesn't do it all the time but he has done it before so imo it wasn't the ADs that caused him to do it this time. These are only the instances which come readily to mind; there may be additional ones. I think House's "cruelty" and apparent insensitivity usually has a purpose or at least a motive. He is usually trying to force out hidden information or shock someone into a realization they need. I'm not sure what it was with the young model but she was certainly shown as someone whose value of herself was based entirely on her sexuality/femininity which she had used to gain advancement in her career and power over her father and possibly other adult men in her life. IMO this was presented as appalling so cutting her sexual identity off at the knees would most likely serve to curtail that behavior and the brutality of how he did it would tend to make the blow more effective. If she had been allowed to regain her balance by being treated gently, she would probably have gone right back to the way she had been operating before. House's cruelty may have been a good thing for her in the long run if it sent her into such an emotional tail-spin that she had to go into therapy and address these issue and maybe come to see that using her body to buy and blackmail what she wanted out of people was not really such a great way to live her life. I'm not saying this was by any means the only or the best way to deal with her issues but I think it is one way that could have worked. What I want to know--because I can't imagine it myself--is what possible motivation or purpose was being served by the way House was behaving toward Addie and her family in the scene under question. You are right, there wasn't any anger or cruelty there--I think because he was so focused on the explanation he didn't care about anything else, even the devastating emotional impact his news had on them--but the only motivation I can find for his behavior is his own obsession. How could ignoring their feelings and insisting on forcing the information they didn't want on the patient and her family do anything for them? I see it as House being driven by his own compulsion only and being completely devoid of any intention or awareness of the good of the patient. And I can't see how that is a good or functional thing. To me, it made House less, not more, "normal" or functional than he usually is. I'm one of those who don't see House's behaviour as inappropriateHow is it appropriate for House to completely ignore and over-ride the obvious distress and wishes of the patient in order to force information she had said she doesn't not need or want on her? How is uncontrollable smiling while telling someone she is about to die fine and suitable behavior? She and her parents were clearly appalled by his demeanor and behavior to the point of wanting to throw him out. If they did not find it unacceptable, why did they demand he get out? both DS and HL have said in interviews that House is depressed. (Sorry, I don't have links but I'm not making this up). 'Half-Wit' doesn't make much sense story-wise if House isn't depressed. Therefore, I believe House is depressed. Taiga, I have made a point of stating repeatedly that I am not suggesting that House is not depressed. What I am saying is that I think Wilson assumption that House was trying to get into the cancer study to address his depression was mistaken because I think he was trying to get into that study to address his pain. So to me Halfwit makes perfect sense story-wise and also as part of one of the themes of the entire season (finding some way to cure the pain) without assuming House was out to cure his depression. In fact, it makes less sense to me if we believe Wilson is correct. House's pain is and has been a constant theme in the show. House has been shown repeatedly to do extreme things to treat it (ketamine, excessive drug use, stealing and forging scripts, stealing drugs, wanting to unethically take a sample of a patients nerve tissue...) while the introduction of doing something extreme to treat the depression he denies he has comes out of nowhere. Wilson has been seeking treatment for his own depression and he has it on the brain. House is obviously suffering some depression too--it would be amazing if he weren't considering--and since Wilson is treating his, he jumps to the conclusion that this is obviously House's motivation in the cancer study scheme. I don't think it is. The fact that the study involved putting an inplant in the pleasure center of the brain to treat depression in cancer patients obviously influenced Wilson's thinking as well. But this is Wilson thinking inside the box. I think it is much more like House to look at this study and see outside the box to wanting the implant for a different reason. I think Wilson is wrong, not because I think House isn't depressed; but because I think it more likely, more in character and more in keeping with the theme of the season that he wanted in that study to treat his otherwise uncureable pain. Whether you or I or Wilson or HL or DS thinks or says House is depressed is beside the point. The question isn't whether he is depressed or not; it is whether treating his depression was his motivation wrt the cancer study and whether the ADs Wilson gave House had a positive, corrective effect on his behavior or whether they had an adverse effect. My thoughts about House and depression are confused--I admit that. I can't honestly say I don't see a number of signs of depression manifested in House because I do. And he certainly has plenty of things to be depressed about. However, I don't think the depression is his defining problem so much as it is a fundamental part of his character as well as being a function of his circumstances. I don't think his depression is debilitating and I don't think it is anything new and I am not altogether sure it even needs to be treated. It's a complex philosophical and ethical issue to me similar to that touched on ny Peter Berger in Listening To Prozac--determining when a mood disorder is pathological and demanding treatment and when is it simply a character trait that doesn't need to be corrected is not always easy to decide. When is the use of psychotropic drugs medicine and when is it social engineering? Is it treating disease or treating character? Where do you draw the line in changing who someone is? I don't know the answers but I am convinced that House is one of the characters which causes us to ask the questions.

What I am saying is that I think Wilson assumption that House was trying to get into the cancer study to address his depression was mistaken because I think he was trying to get into that study to address his pain. That's been a fanon assumption -- that the test was about pain relief -- but canon hasn't backed it up. The study was for depression. House not only doesn't deny Wilson's statements, his actions even back them up. After all, he takes Wilson's advice and goes into -- or at least considering going into -- the restaurant to connect with people to deal with his depression. Pain has nothing to do with that moment. Yes, House has had a continual battle with pain, but he's also dealt with depression. On the Half-Wit commentary, Katie Jacobs and David Shore talk about House and happiness at the end, not House and pain. (And yes, I understand that commentary doesn't count as canon.) The point they were attempting to make with those scenes is hopeful -- and give Wilson and House a moment of hope -- in that while House isn't happy, he is at least curious about happiness, and making attempts to understand and reach for it.

I really don't think you can put his telling Addie's parents about her suicide attempt down to the anti-depressants unless he hasn't done this sort of thing before when he was not on them--and he has. I wasn't implying he went to tell the parents about the suicide attempt because the AD's. I think he was being more social and sympathetic with them since he didn't have any legal obligation to do that, quite the opposite. I'm trying to explain why I didn't see his behaviour as inappropriate in any of his interactions with both, parents and patient, and telling the parents is a very appropriate behaviour IMO. As I say before I don't thing the AD's will suddenly make House a wonderful person (I would hate that!). I believe it'll make him deal better with his chronic pain which I think is the real source of his depression. I didn't see him being more or less obsess about diagnostics, I see him being more social and relax since his first scene until his last. Yes, House insensitivity usually has a purpose. But not with Alex. The only reason I can find to justify his behaviour was his pain, and nothing else. To me this was the only time that I really perceived his behaviour as inappropriate (maybe I'm forgetting other times...). How could ignoring their feelings and insisting on forcing the information they didn't want on the patient and her family do anything for them? It was his insistence that gave him the response about her depression - and also about Wilson dosing him by the way :) If they did not find it unacceptable, why did they demand he get out? Because they didn't know him? They didn't know that he usually is outrageous? The last time House found a way to enrage a patient/relative he ended up in ICU, this time was jus a "get out" :wink:

As usual Namaste said it better than I could. I can only add what I've said before: it's never been said on the show that antidepressants can treat chronic pain, and if the writers meant for the audience to interpret House wanting ADs for that purpose they would need to SAY so for the story to make sense. Yes, House insensitivity usually has a purpose. But not with Alex. The only reason I can find to justify his behaviour was his pain, and nothing else. To me this was the only time that I really perceived his behaviour as inappropriate (maybe I'm forgetting other times...). Yep, you are. Telling the bulemic girl "You look cute that thin" in Half-Wit. House is crueler when he's in pain, physical or emotional.

Yep, you are. Telling the bulemic girl "You look cute that thin" in Half-Wit. House is crueler when he's in pain, physical or emotional. Hee... I knew it. You said it much better than I did. Yes, he is crueler and angrier when he's in pain that's the reason I thought the AD's could help him.

I don't understand the importance of your reiterating, Taiga, that "it's never been said on the show that antidepressants can treat chronic pain". If your are talking to me, I have never suggested that as an explanation of anything. While in the real world some antidepressants are used as an adjunct to treating chronic pain (cymbalta I think is particularly used) both because of a direct effect on pain and as an aid in breaking the pain-stress-more pain-more stress-more pain cycle, I don't think anyone either on the show or here (except you) has brought up this idea. I never suggested or meant to imply that Wilson gave House the anti-depressants for his pain and the cancer study wasn't using anti-depressants, it was using an implant to stimulate the pleasure center of the brain to treat depression in cancer patients. I don't think anti-depressant medications were involved in that at all. Did I ever say House wanted ADs for pain? No. I said he wanted in the brain implant study designed to treat depression in hope that the inplant would do something for pain. Not the pills. The implant. As far as I can recall, House never expressed any desire for wanting anti-depressant medication for any reason whatsoever. In fact, it was because Wilson was sure House would not voluntarily take them that he resorted to sneaking them into his coffee. Obviously, no one has been convinced by my argument. Neither have I seen anything to change my mind in your counter-arguments. There seems to me to be a flaw in the logic which allows one to state that House's inappropriate behavior while on the ADs can be attributed simply to the fact that House is always inappropriate (though I still maintain that his inapproriate behavior in this scene was significantly different from other occassions, especially the uncontrollable smiling--if you don't see it that way, you don't and there is no point in me saying why again) but that he was "nicer" later because the ADs were working in spite of our having seen him behave similarly when he was not on the ADs. He has been "nicer", concerned and responsible after the diagnosis without the ADs so saying the ADs are what made him do so in this case doesn't hold up for me. What does hold up for me is that I have never seen House be so incongrously smiley and so compulsively driven for no reason to force the patient to listen to the explanation they don't want or need to hear except in this instance which also happens to be the only time he has been on the ADs. To say that the patient and her parents were so outraged by House's behavior and ordered him out of the room simply because no one had let them in on the little secret that House is always obnoxious and they aren't supposed to be offended by it, it's just the way he is, makes a nonsense of the scene and has the writers having the characters behave in this way for no reason. I don't buy that. I think the patient and parent's response to House was a cue to the audience that something we need to pay attention to is going on here. What is at issue is that Wilson is doping House with ADs, how he is behaving here is due to the ADs and the patient's and her parents' reaction to it are a comment on that AD-induced behavior. That being on the ADs helped lead to the solution to the mystery does not, to my mind, either justify Wilson giving them to House or demonstrate that they had a good effect on House. It gives the plot a neat twist, but nothing more. I wish I could say at least that time will tell if I am mistaken and the fake cancer really was a "tell" that House is depressed, knows he's depressed and was willing to get something stuck in his brain to be less depressed rather than admit to it and go any other, more conventional route to treat it. Sadly, my experience with this show's follow-through and continuity doesn't even allow me to hope for that. If past experience is anything to go by, it is entirely possible that the whole depression thing will simply be dropped and never referred to again, let alone have any definitive answers about it. But, who knows, maybe the whole new season will be all about House journey through depression--they may switch off the chronic pain and irascible personality thing in favor of delving into why House is so depressed and the various screw-ball ways he interacts with that. What do I know? I'm the one who thinks he just wanted to cure his pain and the ADs made him loopy.... :lol:

I wasn't speaking just to you, sweet fern. When I said that it's never been said on the show that ADs can treat chronic pain and therefore the viewers aren't supposed to connect the 'Half-Wit' drug trial thingy to pain treatment, I was including the "cool new drug" as an AD. It was never suggested by anyone that the treatment could treat pain, so unless there's a reveal later we aren't supposed to think it was. Sure, House's behaviour on ADs was inappropriate. That's the point of him realizing he was on them. I'm not prepared to argue that that inappropriateness was better or worse than his behaviour when he's not on them, though. Given his past we certainly can't say that he would have behaved appropriately if he were AD-free. Look at how he treated Ezra Powell in 'Informed Consent' when HE didn't want to know what was killing him.

Sweet Fern, it was never my intention to try to change your mind and I'm sorry if it seemed that way. I was just trying to explain my perception about a very touching subject and I never mean to imply that yours was wrong. I can see your point and if it wasn't a good one this discussion wouldn't have begun :wink: One of the things that I love about the show is that it allow us to think, it's not all good or all bad. And because of that I like to know other people opinions and that's why I'm here - In my RL no one wants to discuss House with me :cry:

Certain anti-depressants in low doses are used to treat chronic pain. (I'm actually on such a treatment plan.) So it is *possible* that what Wilson was dousing him with could also aide in mildly decreasing his pain. It would be easier to determine if we knew exactly what Wilson was slipping House. SSRI-class antidepressants like Prozac and Lexapro can cause excessive yawning, which was what clued House in to the fact that Wilson himself in fact taking an antidepressant. So if we limit ourselves to this class of antidepressants the chance of his pain decreasing solely from the antidepressant is fairly low. However, he was sleeping better, as is seen when Cameron actually has to physically wake him up. (This is not typical House, as we have seen, in previous times where he is up late with pain and insomnia) So the combination of what Wilson was slipping him (heh) and the Vicodin, was most likely decreasing his pain and boosting his mood. I do not think it was a rapid change, but very gradual, or House would have been aware. IMO he seems like one who does a checklist upon waking to measure his pain level of his leg (and probably shoulder) not to mention all of the other checks he does (eyes for jaundice to make sure his liver isn't shot) and so on. IMO the dosage was probably half what Wilson was prescribed (so 5-10 mg of whatever Wilson was prescribed) I think that House acted horribly towards Addie and her family, but he wasn't even aware of his actions and expressions until he saw his reflection. So normally when he is an ass, it is because he wants to be. Here he was cruel, not because he wanted to be, but because he was astonished that she didn't want to know what was going on in her body. That is pure House right there, the thinker, the curious mind. The fact that he was smiling, that was a side effect. I wonder if in S4 that this story line will be continued, b/c depending on the time that House has been on the AD's he should be weaned off them. Of course knowing House, he would probably screw that theory given he has taken more than his fair share of drugs and not cared about the risks or side effects (see S2's "Distractions") I also wonder if Wilson will continue on them or seek some sort of therapy. Can you imagine House and Wilson in some sort of therapy together? that just says :lol: all over it!

Oh, no. Have been unintentionally being an ass again? :oops: Your reactions suggest I came off far more belligerently than I intented to or felt. I've always gotten into trouble with not seeing the distinctions between arguing and fighting, disagreeing with and (seeming to) dislike someone. :blink: Honestly, I love people who will argue with me! I'll try to mend my ways and curb expressing my opinions to more accurately express my true friendliness and not unintended animosity... :winkiss: I know! My son just rolls his eyes and shakes his head (he's not much of a talker :wink: ) and my daughter will listen for a while and just say she thinks I'm nuts. So thank goodness for you guys! :wub: ETA: I still haven't changed my mind though! :twisted: Certain anti-depressants in low doses are used to treat chronic pain."Duloxetine (Cymbalta) is another type of antidepressant that is approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to treat pain from peripheral neuropathy." http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/tc/Chronic-Pain-MedicationsI do not think it was a rapid change, but very gradual, or House would have been aware. IMO he seems like one who does a checklist upon waking to measure his pain level of his leg (and probably shoulder) not to mention all of the other checks he does (eyes for jaundice to make sure his liver isn't shot) and so on. IMO the dosage was probably half what Wilson was prescribed (so 5-10 mg of whatever Wilson was prescribed) Well, I think this is another case of them saying to heck with how ADs work in the real world because it almost always takes weeks (even as many as six to eight) for these things to actually kick in and really change mood and behavior and iirc Wilson had been buying House coffee for what?--a week? In RL it wouldn't have had an effect that quickly, especially if it was a less than standard dose. So, poetic license, yeah. ITA with you Cindy about House not being aware of his affect and the central part of his personality taking control. You explain that very well. I'm still working on the brevity and clarity thing... :fishy:

and iirc Wilson had been buying House coffee for what?--a week? Why a week? Wilson got House coffee on House Training too (the scene in the cafeteria with "Bonnie said.. I'm bad in bed?!"). So it could easily have been a few weeks, at the very least. He might have started sooner. They just made a point of showing it in Resignation.

Not with me Sweet Fern :P And if you still didn't notice I have a thing for inappropriate behaviour... 8) Wilson got House coffee on House Training too I have the impression that Wilson could be taking his prescribed AD's with his coffee in that scene and when House stole his cup he had the brilliant idea of dosing House too and "test the waters". But still is a short period of time for a full effect (I suppose, I really don't know anything about AD's!) so I think it's more likely that he had started sooner, maybe after Half-Wit.

I knew there was a direct(-ish) reference to the length of time: HOUSE: You rang? WILSON: You called me. HOUSE: I brought you an espresso. You've been buying me coffee for a couple of weeks-- I thought I'd pay you back. One. "Couple of weeks" is pretty vague but it's just possible for them to have started to kick in. If you like, I can give you a list of all the ADs I've been on (unless Wilson was giving him something that doesn't actually exist or something that is really old, I've probably used it... :( ) and all of them took longer than two weeks to have any effect at all on me. Maybe House has a weird brain that reacts differently or something. Or maybe it's tv land reality.... :roll: