Season 5 General Discussion

That's what the bitterness thread is for I don’t want to sound confrontational, but one thing is being bitter, another is to have a critical opinion about some aspects of the show. I love the show, I am perfectly capable of understand the plots and twists and sometimes the intentions of the writers, but that doesn’t mean that I must unconditionally love everything they did. I should be able to see the flaws and be allowed to express my opinion without being asked why I’m still watching. Maybe I’m a little like m_supercomputer, I love to make deep analysis about what is great and what it’s meaningless on the show and lately I’m finding harder and harder to do that. The silliness is not worth the discussion and I’d end up being accused of missing the great picture (or the forest…). I’ll have to agree with Bailey – and God knows how unusual that is!!! - one thing is what the writers are trying to accomplish and another, quite different, is the way they are transferring it to the show. There were great episodes this season, but IMO, most of the stories had been awfully executed. Ironically I think they missed their ‘touch’ exactly when they had the most compelling plots – suddenly they start to skip from one arc to another, in such a random way that the whole picture got blurred, the show seems uneven for a lot of fans, I believe, because of that. House may be struggling to build human connections with one step forward, two steps back – I know he is trying to do this since the show started… - but if the writers were trying to avoid clichés about this… they failed. I can’t see their usual subtlety anymore and I really would love to see the moral discussions from early seasons instead of the suspense of when character A would have sex with character B or when I’d see a shirtless HL… After writing all this, I still think at the end of the season there will be great things about those arcs – I am an optimistic being :wink: – but I really would like if, every time some one doesn’t feel rapt about the show or some particular plot, wouldn’t be accused of bitterness or inability to understand the writers’ intentions. It sounds - and please no offense to anyone here – a little patronizing. Even though Jon Hamm is sweet, sweet, sweet to look at OMG! :shock: Another point of totally agreement with Bailey… It must be some strange astrological conjunction…

OMG! :shock: Another point of totally agreement with Bailey… It must be some strange astrological conjunction… Oh well, you know, broken clocks being right twice a day and all that.... ;-)

Just a quick note to say that the key thing in my comment was "If you agree with all those things and still don't enjoy it." If you agree with all the things (in the yahoo article) and do still enjoy it, in whatever way, then that's not bitter imho. If you agree with all those things and don't enjoy it, I'm not sure what's left other than venting. But maybe I'm missing something there. Maybe the enjoyment is in the venting. I dunno. I wouldn't include thoughtful analysis, positive or negative, as venting. I too did not and do not intend any of my comments to be patronizing or confrontational or, in fact, other than suppportive of and interested in the thoughtful analysis and comments of my fellow fans.

I watch for the same reason as Bailey. I went through years of drought where the best a Hugh fan could hope for on TV was a minute of publicity for Stuart Little or some such. As long as he's on the show, I'll be watching. But the show just doesn't have the same oomph for me that it used to. I used to be riveted to my seat. (Not every episode, but many.) And I'll bite, on the themes - if the problems with the season are because they are taking a long time to work up themes, then they ought to abandon themes in favor of solid storytelling. Because they only get one chance; most people won't even think about the show after the credits roll. They'll only think it was good, or it was bad, or ho-hum, and whether they ever watch again depends on which it was. I didn't and don't think there was a theme per se in S1, and it didn't hurt one bit. IMO that was the best season of all. It was more about character development and good plots than some greater arc. It allowed the best acting, IMO. I dunno, maybe they're trying too hard now. As far as bringing my dislikes to this forum, I agree with those who said different viewpoints what makes discussion interesting. I hope this forum never gets to a point where only positive comments are allowed in the discussion threads. Now that really would be a bringdown. Edited for clarity.

And it's a far different thing to say "I hate this show" than to say "I hate what they've done to this show." For me (and I know for others as well) the two are the same. The show, and everyone and everything in it, is a product of its creators. Whatever "They" decided to do with the show, IS the show. It's their universe and we are observers. (this'll be uninteresting) Correct. That's one way of looking at it. The show is everything that happens in it, obviously all parts included. I remember seeing Unbreakable, with Bruce Willis, and hating it. I was having a blast until the end, one of the shoddiest, crappiest endings I've ever seen, up there with Signs's. That ruined the whole movie and I cannot see it as a good movie that had a bad ending. If the ending ruined it, it was a bad movie. On a TV show, however, that kind of vision is more complicated. It runs much longer and it's generally not fully written at its start. The running time and the segmentation in semi-closed chapters or arcs makes it much easier for us to perceive those parts as a little whole of their own. So we can say, for instance, that One Day One Room was a good episode and Words and Deeds wasn't. Or that the Stacy arc was a good one and Wilson's absence arc wasn't. About the shows not being written, usually the airing starts to catch up to the writing, authour start getting a lot of feedback from the network, fans, ratings etc, and a lot changes. Now something that is being written as we speak is work in progress, but when that work is chronologically divided, then there are people doing things to already completed and established work. In House's case, I know everything was set up to end with Detox if the show didn't pick up. It did, so we moved on to the second part of the season. Up to that point, House M.D. was completed. They have then decided to expand it. So we could see done work being worked upon. Being changed. Or, to simplify, it's like having a really bad sequel to a great movie. I like to think Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions, but feel free to go all the way down to Batman and Robin/Forever. It doesn't wipe the merit off of the previous installment, it just comes out as an offense, a lost opportunitty to do much, much better, to do justice to earlier work. (you were warned) With respect, I'd draw a distinction between bitterness - comments along the lines of "I hate this show and it sucks now" - and discussion of specific criticisms of how the show executes things. The latter is constructive, if not necessarily enjoyable for some, while the former is more a kind of venting. (this will probably be a little less boring) I wouldn't go as far as to call it constructive. I don't think the writers are coming here for tips on what to do with their show, so there's no way in which our comments are helping in the construction of their subject. Maybe as part of a larger picture they can help a fan community express itself, but then we're talking at the sheer volume of opinions, and venting actually does just as good a job as analytical opinions. Probably better. All in all, analytical deconstruction is venting, although more refined. "OMG I loved today's ep!!!!11!!1!" is not that different from "I loved how they were able to convey those emotions in the scene where Bob stabs the Terminator to death. I thought the machine really stole the scene by wearing that Ms. Piggy mask, it's a nice way to link it to that previous incident with the Lord of the Flies. Really showcases Robin William's work as a costume designer". It's just more raw. That's one reason why I'm not fond of the Bitterness thread. Even the most bitter and nonsensical comment should have a place on the regular threads. There's already plenty of them to go around and get confused without one solely for bashing. If I want to bitch about Wilson's behavior on Sleeping Dogs Lie, should I post three times? (I said a little less)

Triteness, An explanation: there were alot of people complaining about the rampant negativity that was taking over the board. There was a lot of non-analytical venting, basically just complaining: "WAH! I hate 13!" "WAH! KJ lied to us" "WAH! There's not enough of (fill in the blank) character" "WAH! The show sucks!" and we got tons of complaints that it was a bash fest as opposed to a discussion. And people come here to discuss the show. Hence, we added the Bitterness thread and by further request, a Satisfaction thread. Where you may not see a need for it, it helps control the flow of the board - you don't get to see all the behind the scenes comments from posters - trust me, it might change your mind about the need for separate threads. ;-) And peggy, I assure you that you're not going to see a point where only positive things are allowed in a thread (except of course for the Satisfaction thread because, duh!) - we just feel that there is a place for everything and everything in its place. Think of the Bitterness, Satisfaction and regular discussion threads as sorting your laundry in 3 loads: darks, lights & colors. Not so hard, eh? You can really screw up your laundry if you're not careful, right? ;-) It may seem like traffic directing to you and to some extent it is, but trust me, it's necessary. And this isn't directed solely at you, but anyone else who might have questions about this. We've explained this many, many times. This is how we're handling it and we're always very appreciative of your understanding and compliance. And with that, we should probably get back to a general discussion of season 5 as opposed to a discussion of the board and its posters.

Hoping this is okay here... I think one of the things that encapsulates the changes this season is how House and Cuddy are being written. (The other is Thirteen, her impossible plots and OW's acting but that's another story.) I've never been a House/Cuddy shipper because I thought that in the end, their personalities wouldn't work in a longterm relationship (and House would never give up his outrageousness which he would have to in order to be ina relationship with his boss) but it made sense to me that when House finally got out of his now 9 years of self-pity, Cuddy is the one he would turn to first to try to have a relationship with. He doesn't want to be lonely any more, he wants to make human contact, and as Wilson said, Cuddy is the person most likely to say yes. She also knew him before the infarction, which seems to be a big thing with him and dating, and she's seen the scar and knows his pain. He trusts her. I can see the thread and it makes sense to me at this point in both House and Cuddy's lives. What doesn't make sense to me is how they are writing House and Cuddy. Instead of making tentative advances to Cuddy, a two steps forward one step back, House is mocking her desire to have a baby, often cruelly, and cutting her down when she needs support (e.g. Joy, Big Baby). Their kiss was desperate and needy, which is okay if you want desperate and needy but it wasn't romantic or caring, which is what you need in romantic relationship. And then House went back to making cruel comments to and about her. Maybe he was right about her wanting to give up on Rachel, he probably was. But just as House himself doesn't want his father's brutal honesty, a good quality in Boy Scouts but not in a dad, Cuddy probably doesn't want brutal honesty in a partner, she wants reassurance and support. And then she turned around and deliberately hurt him physically, attacked him on his weakness, because she was frustrated and taking it out on him. Ouch. It's like the writing is deliberately trying to destroy any chance these two have of a relationship before they even get started on one. I also don't get how getting Cuddy's college desk is a romantic gesture. She's no longer an undergraduate or medical student, she's a professional who demands respect from those who work for her and those who she's is trying to influence to donate money to the hospital. IMO, the last thing she needs in her office is an old beat-up desk from her college days. Maybe I've been reading too much Robert Langs but House getting Cuddy the desk seemed to me to say "No matter how high you rise, no matter what you achieve, to me you'll still always be the kid who was trying to pass her exams." It may be a sweet romantic touch in the bedroom but it's cutting her down in the workplace. And even though House always did, he always encouraged his fellows to disrespect her especially in seasons 4 and 5, it is a lousy base to set up a potential relationship. They don't need to drop it entirely but they do need to move it aside during the Huddy build-up. The whole way House and Cuddy act around each other seems more like they both grew up cloistered, unfamiliar with the opposite sex than two adults in their forties with real relationships behind them. We know House can do romantic, he pursued Stacy when they first met and he pursued her again when she came back in season 2. We also know that Cuddy likes sex, she was willing to sleep with Mr. Lube after only meeting him for coffee. So this extreme shyness around each other, House being unable to knock on Cuddy's door, Cuddy unable to ask him directly and finding an excuse to move herself into this office, wear super sexy clothing and hope he kisses her, seems not only out of place with two fortysomethings, it seems out of place with these specific fortysomethings. As Chase said in Love Hurts, if you want House, you're going to have to jump him. This bizarre shyness between two people who have known each other for over 20 years and had a previous sexual relationship seems inexplicable to me. I didn't mean this to turn into a rant but in spite of the House/Cuddy thread itself making sense, I think the House/Cuddy arc this season is being set-up and written very badly. And there are examples of other arcs this seasons too.. It's not the threads for this season I have trouble with but the way they are being shown. I also don't get why which themes are being given time over others. I want to see more on House and Wilson and their reconciliation and less on Thirteen, Foreman and Taub. When there is an increasingly large segment of the audience asking for more Chase and Cameron almost two years after they practically disappeared from the show (and several unfinished stories with both characters), I don't understand the logic of spending even more time on Thirteen and Foreman, especially as their story grows more and more unrealistic (e.g. the impossibly fast-growing brain tumor).

And now I'm not sure where this should go... You're discussing your thoughts on an overall theme for Season 5. You're in the right place. (Again, a clarification - you're *discussing* why you don't like something and giving examples. That's different than "I hate Huddy. Huddy sux. They are sucky together." See the difference?)

I also don't get how getting Cuddy's college desk is a romantic gesture. She's no longer an undergraduate or medical student, she's a professional who demands respect from those who work for her and those who she's is trying to influence to donate money to the hospital. IMO, the last thing she needs in her office is an old beat-up desk from her college days. Maybe I've been reading too much Robert Langs but House getting Cuddy the desk seemed to me to say "No matter how high you rise, no matter what you achieve, to me you'll still always be the kid who was trying to pass her exams." It may be a sweet romantic touch in the bedroom but it's cutting her down in the workplace. And even though House always did, he always encouraged his fellows to disrespect her especially in seasons 4 and 5, it is a lousy base to set up a potential relationship. They don't need to drop it entirely but they do need to move it aside during the Huddy build-up. While that's certainly a valid interpretation of the desk, I'm not entirely sure that's what House meant by it, for two reasons. One, and this admittedly could be the House/Cuddy shipper in me talking, I see it as an allusion to what were probably happier (relatively speaking) and certainly less-complicated days for the two. Could he have shown that in a way not related to the workplace? Most likely. But it was a public gesture, and one that Cuddy seemed to be looking for. Did he mean in an actual romantic way? Possibly, possibly not. If anything, it was a reinforcement of their version of "friendship." Perhaps an unspoken truce of sorts (for the time). Also, if House really wanted to put her down professionally, there are much easier ways to do it. To get the desk, he had to make sure it was still in existence, contact Cuddy's mother, contact the storage facility, and then pay to have it shipped. That seems like a lot to just imply that Cuddy needs to be put in her place. The whole way House and Cuddy act around each other seems more like they both grew up cloistered, unfamiliar with the opposite sex than two adults in their forties with real relationships behind them. We know House can do romantic, he pursued Stacy when they first met and he pursued her again when she came back in season 2. We also know that Cuddy likes sex, she was willing to sleep with Mr. Lube after only meeting him for coffee. So this extreme shyness around each other, House being unable to knock on Cuddy's door, Cuddy unable to ask him directly and finding an excuse to move herself into this office, wear super sexy clothing and hope he kisses her, seems not only out of place with two fortysomethings, it seems out of place with these specific fortysomethings. As Chase said in Love Hurts, if you want House, you're going to have to jump him. This bizarre shyness between two people who have known each other for over 20 years and had a previous sexual relationship seems inexplicable to me. Well, we never have seen how House pursued Stacy or how he acted in the early days of their relationship. It can also be argued that Cuddy didn't actually have feelings for Lube Guy and was putting on an act in order to attract him. I will agree that this arc has been hyperbolized in terms of actions and emotions, but it illustrates more basic actions and emotions in two fundamentally outrageous characters (the nutjob doctor and the way-too-young Dean of Medicine who hired him) who've screwed up just about every relationship they've had.

What doesn't make sense to me is how they are writing House and Cuddy. Well, yes. Cuddy since S3 and House since S4 seems to be the consensus about the ones who share your opinion. Cuddy tossed aside all the strength she had, it seems, and House discarded his intelligence. He was a very good manipulator and the things he had since the beginning were a broad view of things coupled with a clear view of what he wanted. I may be wrong here, I admit that I'm fishing for the specific characteristics he apparently lost, but seems to me that he knew what he wanted and how to get it, if attainable. He was focused and very much logical, even when borderline insane - now he's more of a mess, throwing love jabs at Cuddy followed by a left straight boob-grab. When you're a jerk without a purpose, you can't really expect sympathy. Not even with Hugh's eyes. Where you may not see a need for it, it helps control the flow of the board - you don't get to see all the behind the scenes comments from posters - trust me, it might change your mind about the need for separate threads. ;-) Oh, I get it. Didn't mean to sound whiny, it's just my take on the matter that came up while toying with the notion of what's constructive and what's not. I know managing a community by creating and enforcing rules tends to suck (and an online community tends to suck even harder because of the nature of online discussion) and that some kind of control is needed to keep discussion from being a flood of useless information about some random people's likes and dislikes. And I know it works. I merely pointed that we might get a lot of repetition and, at the same time, a lot of interesting information pertinent to the topic we wanted to discuss will be lost because it came up elsewhere. If I wanted to complain, I'd take it to a thread regarding complaints. I haven't checked, but it's probably homonimous to the board itself, right?

If I wanted to complain, I'd take it to a thread regarding complaints. I haven't checked, but it's probably homonimous to the board itself, right? It's in the section Urgent Doctor Stuff - the category is called Troubleshooting, etc. and the particular thread is called Board Meeting Agendas: Items for the Dean of Medicine Yes, some things may be missed, but that could be said for any thread on the board. That's the beauty of being able to hop between conversations. And sometimes things have to be sacrificed (unfortunately) to keep some sort of semblance of order.

Their kiss was desperate and needy, which is okay if you want desperate and needy but it wasn't romantic or caring, which is what you need in romantic relationship. I think that's a major difference in terms of how I see things. I don't want and don't expect a "romantic" relationship. It's one reason why I'm not a shipper of House/Anyone. I fully expect his interactions with Cuddy to be needy and desperate because he is needy and desperate. At the time of the kiss, she'd just lost the baby and was also needy and desperate. But then, as I've said before, I hate traditional romances. I find them trite and cliched. Give me fumbling, disastrous, needy and desperate any day. I suppose that's another reason why I like House and Wilson's "stupid, screwed up friendship" so much. Its the very "screwed-upedness" that intrigues me.

Agree with your post Namaste so much. It was the very human factors, desperate and needy, that brought both their defenses down enough so they could make contact. I find that tremendously romantic but not traditionally so. It was deeper than that and I think their connection is much deeper than valentines and flowers. They would just laugh and snark at that, it wouldn't touch them deeply. This did for both of them and they both backed away from it because they didn't know what to do with those feelings. It's like the theme song of the series, "You can't always get what you want" and I think there's a number of reasons why it is so appropriate for the show's thinking. People may think they want the romance but when the chips are down, real human contact is what they need. And as for romantic touches, I thought House bringing her desk back was extremely romantic. It took a lot of effort, it had the advantage of plausible deniablity and it's a nice professional-looking desk. It may have some history between them that we don't know yet, and it seemed to mean a lot to her. She reacted with smiles and was on her way to say how much she appreciated his very Houseian effort. So, until she saw him with the other woman, he had hit a home run in the romantic gestures department. It may not have worked for anyone else, but the desk gambit worked for House and Cuddy. And then of course, it got all screwed up again. Just like all season: one step forward, two or more steps back. Wonderful drama.

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