I'm sure that's not what you meant, but it certainly can be read that way, and that's the frustrating part. Yes, it could be read that way...though I won't try to analyze if that was what was meant or not... I'll leave that to galaxygirl. Like I said, such discussion is fraught with dangers or miscommunication. By I know *I* would not be having this particular conversation, because heterosexual relationships do not seem to need nearly the amount of justifications through canon for many people to accept them. They tend to be the default, so such a conversation among characters would not have been the “WOW!” moment that the House & Wilson interactions in these last few episodes were for me. I am as much a product of my culture as anyone. I may be wrong, but I *do* suspect that had the "Don't Ever Change" exchange concerning "You're sleeping with me..." and "Why don't we date?" happened involving some other dynamic that male/male, it would be more readily accepted by the general public as indicating canon romantic feelings. That does not mean there wouldn't be disagreement ... I never saw House/Cameron as canon either, though I certainly saw that it was being "played with" by TPTB in much the same way. Which just makes me even more convinced that this revelation of the *potential* will be all we really get to support H/W. TPTB know how to string us along - shippers. slashers, genners...they have our number! One of the things I love about this show, is the ambiguity - and the fact that there are layers of depth to this show that go beyond what is on screen - regardless of how you read them - they certainly make you think! And in this day of reality show television, thinking is such a welcome thing for me! *As an aside, I have been visiting sort of general House sites and reading reviews of this episode arc, and it appears many viewers do not even view the House/Wilson interchanges as particularly noteworthy. many don’t even mention their conversations. Which raises the question: am I just biased due to my slash leanings? Or my love of the H/W dynamic? Am I hyper tuned into nuances so much that I am seeing things that are not there? :? As Mr. Spock would say…fascinating!

First of all, warycary, my post was NOT in direct response to yours. We were typing our posts at the same time, and when I submitted mine, I went :shock: to see yours there, because then it would look like I replied to you. Because I didn't. I wasn't replying to anyone specific, and what Poeia said is absolutely correct. We're having a pronoun problem. While I said "you" I wasn't referring to YOU specifically, I was generally referring to people who so vehemently claim that House and Wilson could never be romantically involved. Which, as has been pointed out since my last post, does not necessarily include most people on this board (which is probably why I'm here in the first place). My apologies; this was my fault and I really didn't mean to offend you personally. I essentially agree with everyone who responded after my post. I think all of these opinions are valid. My point was that the show is ambiguous enough, and is so rich in complexities and layers and subtext, that you can argue almost anything and make a good case for it. Really, I think everyone is right. But what I have a problem with is when an opinion based on one person's perception of the show is dismissed as wrong based on another person's perception of the show. I'm not accusing anyone here of doing this, I just think the point of discussing the show at all is to hear other's points of view and be open to them. I'm trying not to sound like defensive slasher, here, because really I'm not. I think if TPTB did go there, it would be in such a way that House and Wilson come out of it still friends, their relationship stronger than ever. I agree that they don't necessarily need to explore a sexual relationship to further deepen their bond, but I also think it wouldn't be a completely ridiculous concept to address on the show. I guess the big point I'm trying to make is: Why can't we be all-inclusive? I can see the validity of both the deep friendship argument and the sexual attraction argument. But I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I think it can be done in a way in which everyone ends up happy. If they don't go there, I'll be happy, because their relationship is the most complex relationship between two men on TV right now. But I just don't see why they can't go there. The fact that they are two men is not a good enough excuse for me. (BTW, I'm pretty sure this website hates me, as it crashed as I was typing this :(, and thank you, Taiga :D )

But I just don't see why they can't go there. The fact that they are two men is not a good enough excuse for me. I don't recall anyone saying they can't go there, but maybe I missed that. I also don't recall anyone saying they can't go there because they are two men, but again maybe I missed that as well. What I have said and heard from many folks is that we agree with an interpretation that says they aren't going there, not because they are men, not because they can't, but because that's how we see the characters and stories that have been presented. It would be like getting on a flight to London and winding up in Rio: nice place, but not where we were headed. For me, I think it would be untrue to the characters that have been presented for them to have a sexual relationship: I just don't think that's who they are or what they want. But what do you care what I think? Why do we all have to agree? I don't mean to belittle anyone else's opinions or views at all, but we have to be able to disagree, or what's a forum for? ;-) Also, I totally agree that it's lovely to hear and present all viewpoints and that the writers have written in a fair amount of ambiguity. They treat us like adults. They don't tell us all the facts. We can make up our own minds on what is going on based on what evidence we have, just like real life.

I don't think they would go for a sexual "relationship" per se. If anything, I could see it maybe end up culminating in a short kiss, or something which would still remain ambiguous. I don't necessarily think they have to sleep together to address some kind of sexual attraction, and that's probably where some slashers differ the most from other slashers. I would never argue that House and Wilson are going to "wind up" together, in a relationship, or even having slept together. And I agree with you in that I actually don't think Wilson would go for that (that is, the sex part). I think House, on the other hand, wouldn't mind. My guess is that they might do something that shows just how much House loves and cares for Wilson (like a kiss on the cheek) which most people would read as friendly and the slashers might read as (unrequited?) romantic love. To me that would be going there, to you it probably wouldn't. And everyone would be happy.

I just don't think that's who they are or what they want. But what do you care what I think? Why do we all have to agree? I don't mean to belittle anyone else's opinions or views at all, but we have to be able to disagree, or what's a forum for? I think we all agree that we can all disagree :D . I think this all got rolling on the subject of how one interprets what is and is not canon on the show, and whether one can argue hoyay now as a possibility within canon. And if one does, does that dismiss a non-hoyay viewpoint. I'm pretty sure the discussion has given a consensus on both viewpoints having their place, and neither being definitively canon. Which is actually more consensus than we got on the addiction question at the other place :D

Actually, I think the biggest problem with the H/W relationship becoming sexual in canon is that TPTB have said on numerous occasions that just will not work for House to be happy. It would be the end of the show. So they have the problem that, if House and Wilson get together and then crash and burn, House would be be completely alone -- no lover and no best friend. (The same would be true of Wilson, but I think he would be more capable of making new friends.) On the other hand, if the relationship doesn't self-destruct, you'd end up with a relatively happy House, which would destroy the show. Maybe in the last season of the show...

Actually, I think the biggest problem with the H/W relationship becoming sexual in canon is that TPTB have said on numerous occasions that just will not work for House to be happy. It would be the end of the show. So they have the problem that, if House and Wilson get together and then crash and burn, House would be be completely alone -- no lover and no best friend. (The same would be true of Wilson, but I think he would be more capable of making new friends.) On the other hand, if the relationship doesn't self-destruct, you'd end up with a relatively happy House, which would destroy the show. Maybe in the last season of the show... Yeah, which is why I think it'll never happen. The only real option they would then have would be for Wilson to kick the bucket. Which would certainly be an interesting season/arc seeing House dealing without Wilson but do I want to see it? Not so much.

It’s been interesting and fun to read this thread and the passionate discussions, yet as I am neither a Hoyay-er nor a HWfriendshipper, I might have a slightly different perspective. I have nothing against either position—I love slash in fanfics and I also loved the House-Wilson interactions on the show—but there are certain realities to US television that I haven’t seen touched upon here. I very much doubt that House and Wilson are going to openly acknowledge having a sexual relationship in a non-joking, unambiguous way or have a love scene in bed together or even walk off into the sunset holding hands at the end of the series, because…this is US television. If such a thing were to happen, House MD would immediately cease to be known as the series about “that brilliant doctor who is drug-addicted and rude to everyone, especially his patients, even as he comes up with cures to mysterious diseases” and become the series about “that brilliant gay doctor who harbors a secret love for his best male friend over several seasons.” Unfair? Yes. Likely? Double-yes—and don’t think for a moment that TPTB don’t know it as well as I do. You see, I’m as old as they are, and I remember very well the brouhaha over Ellen DeGeneres' first sitcom, when her character came out as a lesbian. The show went from a decently-rated ensemble show about the trials and tribulations of a single woman and her group of quirky friends—to being promoted (and blasted) as that Lesbian show about the Lesbian woman who struggles to find a Lesbian partner and happiness in a Lesbian way. Needless to say, the show lost ratings and was cancelled shortly thereafter. Unfair? Well, yes in a way. Although I personally rooted for the gay rights aspect, I also felt that the show lost its humorous edge and became too earnest and preachy. The thing is, TPTB are never going to risk that shift of focus with House MD, especially considering that it’s going to go into syndication, and how much money they stand to lose from the Bible Belt stations. So what I feel right now about the games the writers are playing with the House-Wilson relationship is that it’s too damn meta. In my opinion, the writers are tossing scraps to various fan interests like fish to seals, and laughing to see us all scramble and thrash for the True Meaning of certain scenes—when there isn’t any, other than fanservice for ratings. Have House say “I love you” to Wilson, and watch the slash fandom squee and ratings go up. Have Cameron say “I love House”—and watch the Ham shippers squee and ratings go up. Have Thirteen and the rest of the newbies know every last damn thing about House that the viewer knows—and have the newbie fans squee and ratings go up. If the fans loved House playing air guitar with his cane in “Human Error”—then have him top it by dancing with it and shooting it like a gun at Foreman this season. I’m tired of the meta and the fanservice in Season 4. Only in the last two episodes did I feel that I was watching House MD again, instead of some weird fanfic version of the show. I watch this show for its intelligence, and I’d like to think the producers regard the fans the same way. Instead, I’ve spent the majority of this season feeling like I’ve been played.

moon_jennon, I am pleased that this was a misunderstanding. But I allowed my panache to falter - that was inappropriate. And I was furthermore discourteous - that was inexcusable, whether the content of my response had been justified or not. Pardon me for my harsh tone. I felt that my open-to-all-possibilities posts were being maligned, and I was seriously offended. Here is the hammer, prepare the cross... The irony is that I LOL'd at DEC, because I knew how it would delight the HoYayers. I was imagining how astonished and jubilant they must be, and happy for them, getting support for their POV. (Though I did look forward to more broad-based discussions, once the furor died down.) Like jonne, I have a European background (and a New Yorker to boot), so I find American squeamishness about human sexuality (especially American TV) perplexing and even silly. I just consider the emotional landscape more interesting and important, and wherever it might go is fine with me. IMO, YMMV and whatever other blasted, bloody disclaimer is required to indicate my complete flexibility in this unfortunate discussion. Even more ironic - the friend I used as an example is the very one who long ago named me warycary - precisely because he thought me far too fastidious about treading on anyone's personal opinions and pleasure, too broad-minded, too accepting! That I might be painted as closed-minded, inflexible or belittling of someone's enjoyment, rather than celebrating it, would have him in a month-long fit of satire and hysterical laughter. For all I know, he is ROTF right now. I'll save my POV on this aspect of H/W for my friends and colleagues. I just find anything that revels in exclusion rather than inclusion to be entirely contrary to my taste and temperament. Clearly, the more one says, the less one is understood, and precision of language is too valuable to be wasted on the careless or combative. Mindless, ordinary "sound-bite" posts are more appropriate in quarrelsome company.

DEC review & s4 comments This review of DEC (one of the better ones I've seen) also includes the reviewer's suggestions for the rest of s4 based on the numbers arc etc. I'd be curious to see what we all agree/disagree with.

Clearly, the more one says, the less one is understood, and precision of language is too valuable to be wasted on the careless or combative. Mindless, ordinary "sound-bite" posts are more appropriate in quarrelsome company. Aw warycary must we all suffer for the transgressions of a few in the heat of the moment? I've enjoyed your posts tremendously and find your particular language always enjoyable and at times touching and profound. Just because some folks are perhaps "careless or combative" doesn't mean there aren't a lot of us who are supportive and interested. Of course, maybe the dissension and what seems to be to be a kind of desperation to find consensus is more troubling to you than I realize: it's baffling to me. Anyway, none of those "sound bite" posts from you, you're too articulate for that: we're simply not having it! :-)

While I totally agree with Boffle about not wanting to miss Wary's posts on any subject, I must admit I cringed at the phrase 'quarrelsome company'. I do believe that's a bit unfair to all the posters here who try to explain their POV as best they can and are, I feel, always prepared to look seriously at what other people are trying to convey, just the way you are, Wary. You know I love you still, right?

Boffle, that's twice you've cracked me up in the midst of this debacle, and led me from an unfortunate frame of mind! And no fear, dissent is my middle name! But even if consensus isn't always possible, respect certainly is. If these heated moments cause even me to be rude, or if they demand a tiresome string of YMMVs, then I'd rather not take part in them. I actually prefer reading differing opinions, since I already know my own (and me, myself and I communicate on a regular basis). A solid round of persuasive opposition can make me think more carefully about my own POV, or even sway me to the other side. (Those chocolates help, I must say.) But when things get uncivilized, and other people's well-argued viewpoints (not even necessarily my own) are devalued, my armor rattles and my white charger whinnies in the courtyard. If you guys can't settle down and courteously beat each other's brains out with, well, brains, I'd rather turn in my club. This had made me very unhappy. I find it impossible to enjoy myself unless the people around me are enjoying themselves as well, jonne. Yet another of my character flaws, but not one I would dream of changing. A good meaty, even heated debate is delightful. Insulting each other is not. Even one unreasonable person can make for quarrelsome company. But in this company, I totally agree with you, there are not many "ones". :) But you have been warned, crabby people - my soapbox is at the ready, and well able to support my didactic weight! :D I do resolve, however, not to let anything dislodge my panache again. Topic, topic... aenissesthai, in addition to outlining many of my feelings regarding S4 (Here! IMO, YMMV, MPOV, for the surly among us), you offered a fresh look at the whys one or another of the myriad possibilities may or may not occur. Very true, and very interesting. Good post - IMO, YMMV, etc. - ya ill-natured buggers.