Season 4 General Discussion

And, to me, your point is correct. But I think the point for the H/W shippers is validation. Would this discussion happen if House had shown that kind of behaviour toward a woman? Would have had any doubt on his feelings? Absolutely! He has shown feelings towards Cameron, Cuddy, Cate. There's just always enough (sub)text to denie that it is what they show it to be (?). And I don't think anyone here would ever call a slasher delusional or ridiculous. Your POV is just as valid as any other, but not more so, in my opinion. Perhaps it's because I'm from a country where homosexuality is less of an issue, but sometimes it's hard for me to understand why peope get so worked up about it. Not that it's bad to feel strongly about things you believe in, it just seems a bit fanatical sometimes. I love the slasherspart of this board, let me be clear about it, it's just I love the others just as much. I guess I'm sort of bisexual myself. :roll: Back to discussing sea. 4, do you think that for viewers who are not as invested in it as we are, the focus on Wilson is a surprise? It seems to me that, if you just happen to watch it after the Superbowl, these episodes must seem strange. I don't think they are so appealing if you have never watched House before.

I wasn't talking about this forum Jonne, I was talking in the general sense, and not only about House. About the focus on Wilson, I'm completely biased to answer your question, since he was always front and centre to me, almost as much as House, but I read some opinions (not here!) that these last two epi were too close to a soap opera, and I don't think they said it as a compliment...

I'm going to attempt to avoid the HoYay/not HoYay issues of the past page and ask something completely different, solely in terms of where House and Wilson's relationship (regardless of how you define that relationship) may be going. No spoilers involved here, by the way. In the third season, the Doris Egan-penned "Son of a Coma Guy" House says to Wilson that he doesn't want to push their friendship until he breaks. That's immediately followed by Whac-a-Mole and the rest of the Tritter arc as he does proceed to push -- and Wilson pushes back -- until we reach the point where their friendship may not break, but there are some stress fractures until they pull it back from the brink. Now this year with Doris Egan's "Don't Ever Change," we've got House telling Wilson that he's not self-sacrificing though he is, in fact, setting himself up for a potential sacrifice by giving Wilson a chance at happiness of a sort. I've seen House and Wilson this season as both being in better places emotionally, and I think that their relationship is stronger for having been tested, and knowing that they can recover from that. To me, it's interesting to see that while they tested the breaking point in one direction, they're now exploring the freedom possible while still maintaining their ties to each other at this point. Thoughts? Hopes for whether they'll be exploring this new Egan-penned concept in the future?

Thoughts? Hopes for whether they'll be exploring this new Egan-penned concept in the future? I love the fact that a lot of the changes in the relationship are down to House. So, I think the fears that 'nothing had changed' at the end of the Tritter arc, that House hadn't 'learned' anything, etc, are unfounded and it's just taken us (and the characters) a while to get to this point. There's an interesting mix so far of House being both more reckless (the 'suicide' attempts) and more careful (the hiring game, sensitivity to Wilson's feelings, etc) with his life. I'm not quite sure I've figured it all out yet. As to where things are going, I have no idea. I love the angst, but I also like it when House is being 'good'.

Back to discussing sea. 4, do you think that for viewers who are not as invested in it as we are, the focus on Wilson is a surprise? It seems to me that, if you just happen to watch it after the Superbowl, these episodes must seem strange. I don't think they are so appealing if you have never watched House before. Funny you should ask. I watched DEC with my husband. We usually don't watch the show together because each of us has worked nights at different points over the past few years. But he's been a regular viewer since the pilot. At the end of this ep, he asked me if anyone on any of the House message boards had ever theorized a romantic attraction between House and Wilson. I about died laughing. But in thinking about that comment, from a regular viewer who just watches the show and feels no need to discuss it online, for this one person at least, none of the supposed H/W subtext from 3+ years has been evident. It took an episode where they made blatant jokes about such a thing for it to cross his mind. Myself, I don't think they intend to go anywhere with a H/W romantic relationship, just because of the way they did play the concept for a laugh. (In the restaurant scene.) They were and are friends, they just realized here that some of the dynamics of that friendship have repeated in another (strong versus weak, giving versus taking).

Oh...now I see people are deciding not to discuss this issue - for fear of fracturing fandom? I'd hate to see us unwilling to share thoughts because of fear...reminds me to much of THAT OTHER PLACE. :!: And since I spent a good half an hour on this post, I will leave it for now, but if the general consensus is not to discuss it, I will not say any more. (Perhaps it belongs elsewhere?) Slashers are defensive because usually their POV are rarely taken into account. I am not sure I would have used the term "defensive", but yes, you are correct about my initial point. What I have been trying to express (and not doing a very good job apparently) really goes beyond H/W or even the show, House MD. This is very difficult to discuss, because you are trying to talk about issues that are NOT surface issues, but are beneath the crust and hidden - open to a myriad of interpretations ... thus no two viewpoints are going to be exactly the same - miscommunication and confusion are likely to get in the way and cause upset feelings. But I am trying to explain myself clearly...readers please forgive me if I stumble while trying. :oops: At least for me, the "squee” moment here isn't about H/W per se...it is about validation of a POV which usually gets shunted aside. I am very happy to see that in this fandom, even those who are firm friendshippers, are for the most part, willing to allow slashers to see their subtext without trying to "correct" or shout down that interpretation. I've been following fandom for years, and such acceptance is not always shown. I am strongly opposed to labeling someone a 'homophobe" simply because they do not read the subtext in the way I do, because I KNOW how it feels to have your POV denigrated. For years, I have seen fans told that a slash viewpoint called "unrealistic" or "fantasy" or even watched them labeled "fag hags" because they saw something someone else did not. Or had people suggest that “sex” cheapens a relationship –and saying that character A and character B are having sex somehow makes them LESS that they were before… because suggesting a slash relationship is just about SEX and those who are into slash are all about the SEX. Etc. Etc. (Let me make it clear I am NOT talking about previous comments here, which although they touch on this issue, have not been expressed in nearly the caustic, judgmental way I am using to illustrate my point – so please don’t take offense because I am not referring to the discussion on this thread at all. ) Exaggerations and a failure to acknowledge others perceptions all around. Granted, such hurtful comments do go both ways, and I have seen ‘slasher’ dish out dirt as well. :x All of this can fracture a fandom, and in some fandoms the slashers and genners have very separate and entrenched camps, and people like me, who see both sides, are viewed with some suspicion. I DO NOT wish to see that happen here! And if contributing to this discussion is causing such a rift, I will stop! Mods let me know… However, in general those who are long term slashers have been on the receiving end of such comments for years, because canon rarely offers much to support such a POV. It gives us "hints" and "innuendo" and moments that are very easily explained away - so slashers are left with very little to justify their POV besides personal interpretation - which in the end is hard to defend. Personally, I have always been a bit insulated from the whole controversy *because* I can straddle the line… and I can still see H/W as either gen or slash, depending upon which glasses I wish to put on today… But for me, the thrilling moment is that, for the first time in *my* experience (because maybe there are other shows that have gone there) the slash viewpoint has some real validation on the part of TPTB. There was nothing subtle about the last two episodes of House. There weren’t saying House and Wilson ARE having a sexual relationship or even that they will – but they clearly were saying they had thought about it, and considered it and acknowledged the possibility – and THAT in itself is a BIG moment – and THAT is why I am in such a fuddle. Lag *who hopes she was able to express herself unambiguiously enough not to unknowingly insult anyone here.*

I think we are having a pronoun problem here. For example, when moon_jennon said "while you appreciate..." I took it to be the generic you. In formal English it would be "while one appreciates..." or "while some appreciate..." but that is very stilted. And what is actually quite funny about this discussion is that each person is making sure to say that her (I assume most of us are of the female persuasion) opinion is just that -- her opinion. And the next poster says "but you are misinterpreting what I meant..." And the bottom line is that everyone is saying the same thing. The H/W relationship is very deep and complex. At the present time, canon has not stated that their relationship has been sexual in the past but the complexity of their relationship allows people to believe it has been. Similarly, the fact that Wilson is dating Amber may be interpreted either as "he loves House's personality and, being a heterosexual male, has found a woman with a very similar personality" or "they are one step closer to realizing that their attraction to each other is physical as well as emotional, mental, etc." As canon unfolds, some people will have their views confirmed and others will adjust their views to incorporate the new facts. And we will continue arguing what that means for the future. House (the character and the show) is not cookie-cutter/easily labeled. There will always be texture and nuances to debate. I LOVE THIS SHOW!!!

I'm not talking of sidestepping any variation of H/W - each one has the potential to be satisfying and compelling. My point is that the relationship does not require "romance" to take a new step, to become more emotionally intense or profound. If it were romantic, then, yes, sex could, perhaps should, be a natural part of that evolution, a wonderful expression of a certain kind of love. But a non-sexual bond can be equally profound, interesting and compelling. Sex is common to every living species - but the unique-in-the-universe make up of each human being is not. Besides, the person you sleep with is often not the one to whom you bare your soul. I think we agree very much on the wonderful variations on caring, and all of them have value. You expressed beautifully why the intense platonic friendship interests you the most. For me, I think network television is more comfortable, as much as it is comfortable at all examining the emotional underpinnings of men's relationships, with the soul mate concept, but much less so with two men realising they have fallen in love with each other. So, I'm thrilled to see that our PTB are at least acknowledging that this is a possibility with these two, and I think if they do go that way, there's been lots of build up and these two actors can carry it off. I am absolutely not saying sex scenes are on the storyboard as we speak and lets all chip in to send the L Word as a wedding present. The story could be developed in any number of ways, including intentionally staying ambiguous and driving us all crazy (but happily so :D ). Now this year with Doris Egan's "Don't Ever Change," we've got House telling Wilson that he's not self-sacrificing though he is, in fact, setting himself up for a potential sacrifice by giving Wilson a chance at happiness of a sort. I've seen House and Wilson this season as both being in better places emotionally, and I think that their relationship is stronger for having been tested, and knowing that they can recover from that. To me, it's interesting to see that while they tested the breaking point in one direction, they're now exploring the freedom possible while still maintaining their ties to each other at this point. I agree that this season has House and Wilson in a stronger emotional place and that the spotlight is on their relationship. I can definitely see that House allowing Wilson some emotional freedom is one interpretation of this ep. I'm not sure it's the only one (what's new on this show?). I'm balanced precariously on the fence on what we've been shown so far. In the DDX scene where House compares the POTW's puzzling symptoms to Wilson, and asks what he should do, Foreman in the background says he should accept Wilson is happy. But I think House is answering his own question when he says he should do the opposite. The rest of the scene has the team riffing off House's metaphor in regard to the patient, but I think House may also have decided upon his next strategy--do the opposite of what Wilson (and Amber) expect. Which he does--Wilson is astonished at his decision to back off. In the scene between House and Amber in her apartment, House makes a series of accusations about Amber's motives, and she agrees with them all. Upon reflection, House decides he was wrong. If that pattern continues in the scene between the two in House's office, that would explain why he tells Wilson he doesn't think Wilson or Amber has changed, he's backing off anyway, but not because he's self-sacrificing. House may have decided Amber is a worthy opponent and he's better off allowing her to hang herself than have her get him to hang himself. If that's the case, I expect we'll see more games between all three. But they may take place over time and in the meantime, House has room to explore another relationship--Cuddy. That's the relationship I feel will most probably end with both people realising they need to back away from the attraction and settle into a friendship, because I don't see how Cuddy can possibly function as House's lover, friend and boss. Friend and boss already strain her to the limit! Of course, they may need to find out the hard way.

I'm wondering if we would be having this discussion if it hadn't been Wilson dating a House-like woman but Cuddy/Cameron who was dating a House-like man.

Agreed, galaxygirl. And likewise, if House's best friend Dr. Wilson happened to be a straight woman with whom House has shared a fun and deep and caring platonic friendship all these years... we also wouldn't necessarily be having this discussion. If the female best friend Wilson started dating a man just like her best friend House, then House would realize that female Wilson loves him. And I think that, watching Don't Ever Change with a female Wilson, it would be glaringly obvious to viewers that House loves Wilson. The way he was looking at Wilson (see my icon)... he doesn't look at Cuddy or Cameron that way. He looked at Stacy that way. The fact that House and Wilson are both (up to now, heterosexual) men is what creates the beautiful (yet irritating) ambiguity.

Lagniappe I thought your posts are perfectly clear. If I can understand what you're trying to say, you're doing a good job :) I used the word "defensive" not about your post, but to try to explain why some times seem so hard to a non-hoyayer to argue with one. Slashers often hold on to their POV because it is the only thing that they have. Thoughts? Hopes for whether they'll be exploring this new Egan-penned concept in the future? Honestly? I have no idea... I can't think a better way to finish a season even if it wasn't what they had planned - and I know the strike is over so we would probably get more episodes. But I certainly hope they continue to explore the H/W/Amber dynamic.

Lagniappe, thank you for your post. I forgot to mention that, eventhough I have some different views, I was truly moved by your initial post. It showed how much you care about the show, and how deeply you feel about the House/Wilson relationship. It is fascinating what this show means to people. Let me give an example from my own life. I hate ironing :evil: , but yesterday I finished doing all of without really noticing, just because I started thinking about why I had such strong feelings about House and Wilson and it gave me some insights about my own personality. In English, in might add, because in my mind I was talking to all of you. Now books have done that to me, music, but never ever a TV-show!

And I think that, watching Don't Ever Change with a female Wilson, it would be glaringly obvious to viewers that House loves Wilson. Not glaringly obvious for me, based on my experience with multiple shows. People have insisted that male and female characters are in love based on looks and comments and half the time, I don't see it. I'm not saying I never see romance, but there are plenty of men and women who aren't officially a couple but who are so obvious to some people that it's just a matter of time (or the writers are missing it) and I don't see it. The way he was looking at Wilson (see my icon)... he doesn't look at Cuddy or Cameron that way. He looked at Stacy that way. I don't recall how he looked at Stacy, but I personally don't see anything in the icon that looks like love. In the DDX scene where House compares the POTW's puzzling symptoms to Wilson, and asks what he should do, Foreman in the background says he should accept Wilson is happy. But I think House is answering his own question when he says he should do the opposite. The rest of the scene has the team riffing off House's metaphor in regard to the patient, but I think House may also have decided upon his next strategy--do the opposite of what Wilson (and Amber) expect. I read that scene differently. I didn't see it as do the opposite of what Wilson expects, but do the opposite of what Foreman said -accept that Wilson is happy. Because his next move isn't to go and tell Wilson that he thinks he made a good choice. His very next move is to try and tempt CTB with a job offer. That was the strategy I saw. It was only after finding out that she wasn't tempted, that she would walk away from it because she felt she had something better with Wilson, that House said that he thought Wilson made a good choice. I think the plots and strategies ended in the last scene between House and CTB.

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