I wasn’t sure under which topic this commentary would fall but “Season 4” seemed as good as any… I’ve been into fandom for a long time – and into fanfiction only slightly less time – having started writing it only shortly after “hooking up” with my first fandom. Actually, I was really too young to do much writing, so most of my first fanfiction was expressed through drawing. Yeah – I was THAT young! Eventually, I discovered that other people wrote fanfiction too, and later I stumbled across slash. Now, I read gen and slash pretty much interchangeably. I read “slash” even when I personally don’t SEE it in canon, because I will read well written fanfic regardless of whether the characters are getting it on or not. I read slash in fandoms where I just don’t see the characters being able to get involved sexually due to canon circumstances. Kirk/Spock is an example, as well as Jack/Daniel in SG1. I read slash in fandoms where there is very little in canon to support it, but it just “feels” right. TPM Obi/Qui comes to mind or Starbuck/Apollo on the original BSG. I am picky about the fandoms I “personally” slash. I don’t just hook up characters because they are cute guys. That is just one of those aspects of fandom that has never appealed to me… main character and random guy who appeared in one episode for three minutes but was really hot… not my cup of tea. Or characters that appear to hate each other onscreen, but somehow find true love in fanfiction. Nope. Does not do it for me. But every now and then a show comes along where I can almost taste the “slash” in canon. I have always considered Starsky and Hutch one show where canon came as close to supporting a sexual relationship as anything on television that didn’t have readily established bi- or gay characters. But House MD has now crossed even the standard for me set by S&H. And I don’t know what to think! I am so used to never actually “seeing” my fantasies played out on screen – after YEARS of disappointment and having only subtext and innuendo to support my favorite slash, I am not sure I trust this…this official foray into the potential of a relationship between House and Wilson. It doesn’t seem real to me! Have been burned or denied or ignored so many times, I find I do not trust this gift. It has so much wonderful potential, but all I can keep thinking is about how terribly TPTB could screw it all up! Which in turns makes it hard for me to fully enjoy it for what it is. Maybe younger fans will find it easier to just embrace this revelation – but for someone who has seen “slash” denied, ridiculed, maligned and ignored so many times, I have trouble believing that any network is going to actually ‘go there.” And yet there is a spark of hope! :D

Edited because I don't feel like walking into another potential wank trap. I've been beating my head against the wall enough lately. Let's just say: I personally don't see canon text for evidence that the HoYay is real, but can see plenty of subtext with levels of text to definitely see that there are hints at it that can be played with and is obviously something that the show creators are happy with playing with too. I just don't want to be kicked out of the House/Wilson club because I personally see it as an intense friendship, rather than a non-platonic relationship. (I've been afraid to even say "boo" in the HoYay areas lately and feel like from a friendshipper's perspective, my point of view is being drowned out by all the squee.)

Also edited. I hope and think there's lots of room for intense friendshippers :D Your posts are always wonderful to read. I don't think the writers have nailed down anything so concretely that only hoyay makes sense. Just that there is enough textual evidence that it can now be argued as one version of canon at this point. Which, on this show, is about as concrete as things get! I'm still on the fence myself on where the writers are actually planning to take this.

Namaste, I read and liked your pre-edited post. But I don't understand why you'd want to hang out in the HoYay thread -- that is for people who see the relationship as sexual. I don't remember the last time I stuck my nose in there. Over in the PPTH People forum we have "Stupid, Screwed-Up Friendship: The House & Wilson Thread" which is about their friendship rather than the physical attraction they may or may not have for each other (and which they may or may not have acted on -- depending on how slashy one's goggles are.) I assume that's more your speed. Going to the HoYay thread to say "but they're not sleeping together" is a little like going to the National Republican Headquarters and announcing that Bush is an idiot (or the Democrat Headquarters to say that about Ted Kennedy.) You know, before you open your mouth, that you are going to be pounced on so why be surprised.

Oh dear, Namaste, I apologize if my post made you feel excluded. That wasn't my purpose at all. One thing about being involved in fandom for years and openly reading both gen and slash is that I can easily see how people can interpret relationships in different ways. I certainly would never try to "kick anyone out" of a fandom because their views may not dovetail with mine. Hardly. I am very inclusive - which is one reason I can happily read gen and slash and AU and gender swap etc. I was not saying either a gen or a slash interpretation is anymore valid than the other - only trying to express how *I* view the relationship. I guess you could call me "bi" when it comes to H/W - I can see their relationship either way.... The point is that the "hints' and "subtext" on House cannot be ignored. Whether a viewer wants to believe House and Wilson will or will not "go there" the subtext has been brought out into the open. They have crossed a line such that even those who see H/W as deep friendship (like you) are able to acknowledge that TPTB ARE playing with the possibility. This has never happened before in any fandom I have been a part of.... that is what makes it so surprising to me. They acknowledged that there is the potential! Personally, I welcome the viewpoint of both slashers and friendshippers because I can see the relationship from both perspectives - but please forgive me just this one moment of excitement in my fandom experience - I just have to squee a little bit over the fact that for once -TPTB have acknowledged an awareness that a slash pairing I *can* imagine exists as a possibility - whether or not such a "relationship" becomes canon, the potential is now canon, and that in itself rocks my socks. I hope I expressed myself a bit better this time. And personally I welcome your input here - because although I can see the relationship as sexual I don't necessarily ONLY see it as sexual - and I think both points of view have something interesting to add to a discussion. For me, talking with only like minded individuals isn't nearly as engaging! Different viewpoint open up a myriad of discussion points that otherwise might be missed.

The was I se H/W this season is "really funny one-liners and scenes", because THAT'S what we've been getting and THAT'S what we want more of, right? Am I right? (Sorry. Kinda high on ice cream right now)

I missed Namaste's pre-edited version, and Poeia makes a good point that the fox in the hen-house is bound to be shot. And I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth, Namaste, but I also get a similar sense sometimes, in various threads. DEC is the latest and most overwhelming example. After the ep aired, the uproar was understandably intense, and I was happy for the HoYaers that they got a certain degree of validation for their POV. But I didn't post my more moderate view for a while because I would have been the voice in the wilderness of squee, and I didn't want to spoil the H/W folks' fun. Personally though, the posts got far more interesting, once the furor died down and people's thoughts took on a wider focus. Ironically, filex1410, a devoted shipper, put forth an excellent and well balanced critique of the Wilson/Amber relationship which clearly and logically undermined her own views and hopes for H/W! That kind of analysis is certainly more thought-provoking and engaging to both POVs than straight squeeing. (Hm, straight squeeing is an oxymoron in this context, isn't it?) My own view is that their sexual orientation is decidedly heterosexual. It is entirely possible (and gaining dramatic momentum) that their unusual and profound friendship may develop into a sexual one, though IMO, it is not yet canon. Even if the relationship were to take that direction, I believe that it would be an attraction for each other only, not an attraction to other men. I don't see House and Wilson as gay in the wider sense. My colleagues and I were having this discussion, and one who is gay, echoed my opinions, though his hopes are more in line with Lagniappe's. :) Another one compared it to a classic of ambiguity, Laurel and Hardy. (Stan Laurel even has a scene in a wedding dress.) The implication that they were a gay couple added another layer to their relationship, and tremendously enhanced their comedy. But even without that aspect, they would still be intimate, never-to-be-parted companions, and just as funny. For me it doesn't essentially matter if House and Wilson ever get sexually involved. I find their emotional involvement to be what drives their story, and far more interesting and compelling than any potential roll in the hay. ETA: Though I have to confess that in the case of Kirk and Spock, I did harbor a certain fascination for those Vulcan mating rituals, and I detested that bitch, T'Pring.

My own view is that their sexual orientation is decidedly heterosexual. It is entirely possible (and gaining dramatic momentum) that their unusual and profound friendship may develop into a sexual one, though IMO, it is not yet canon. Even if the relationship were to take that direction, I believe that it would be an attraction for each other only, not an attraction to other men. I think this was what Lagniappe was so happy about--the writers taking the relationship to a point that even people who have not been seeing the relationship as having this overtone now see the possibility even if they don't see it as a probability. That is quite amazing for a network show. Also, I'm pretty sure you'll find a group of hoyayers who agree with you that if the relationship does turn sexual that these two men have fallen in love with each other, not entirely turned their sexual orientation. There's hoyayers of all descriptions :D , so you can pull up a chair if the need arises. For me it doesn't essentially matter if House and Wilson ever get sexually involved. I find their emotional involvement to be what drives their story, and far more interesting and compelling than any potential roll in the hay. This is the only part I don't quite follow. If House and Wilson do take their relationship to a new and unexpected step, why would that story not be potentially compelling and continuing their emotional involvement rather than sidestepping it? Sex is a normal part of relationships when they turn romantic, so it wouldn't be gratuitous unless the writers get completely hamhanded with their keyboards. And they handled the South Pole Strip with delicacy and a bit of sizzle! I suppose they could go the route of Cameron and Chase, but I thought that was more specific to Cam's character at that point in time.

Going to the HoYay thread to say "but they're not sleeping together" is a little like going to the National Republican Headquarters and announcing that Bush is an idiot (or the Democrat Headquarters to say that about Ted Kennedy.) You know, before you open your mouth, that you are going to be pounced on so why be surprised. That's why I stay out of the HoYay thread. I've looked there on occasion, and read stuff, but would never dare to say: "You guys are wrong" in that thread, just as I'd never say "You guys are wrong" in the bitterness thread, because those threads are devoted to those specific issues. The ranting I posted and edited earlier was prompted by issues in multiple places, not against anyone in particular here, (and not about you,lagniappe) but, for instance, there was one meta that came out and said that if you're not on the HoYay train, then you're missing half of the nuances. My point being that I can see them -- and have fun with them -- even if I don't believe in them. (Of course someone else implied I was a homophobe because I resist labeling House bisexual, which is the reason I'm a little sensitive about posting anything these days, and edited my earlier comments.) My apologies for any issues.

My question is, what is the difference between me telling you it's possible that House and Wilson may develop romantic feelings for each other, and you telling me there's no way any such thing will ever happen? Neither of us can really know, so how can either of us be right? I mean, for example, I personally cringe when people say (seriously) that Wilson is gay and in denial about his love for House, just as I cringe when people say that House is strictly heterosexual and there's no way he'd ever get with a guy. Because I feel there's no canonical evidence for either one. You can't say either of those for sure, and I think it's wrong that they are both a biased inference but one is supposedly the "right" one. None of us are really objective in our opinions, no matter what we claim. We "see" what we "see" and I think the writers are allowing for this to be possible. They throw things in that they know the slashers will be sensitive to, but also make it ambiguous enough that if you don't want to see it that way, you don't have to. But that doesn't mean that what the slashers see is any less valid, or that they're idiots because you think they take it more seriously than you think they should. It also doesn't mean that you're wrong because you don't see it the way they do. The writing allows for the different interpretations. To me, that's the very definition of good writing. You should be able to read a deeper analysis of the text rather than just skim the surface. So while you appreciate the House/Wilson relationship as a deeply complicated and nuanced friendship (as I do), HoYayers take it just one step further and add sexual attraction to the equation (which I also do), because maybe they have a view of sexuality that is a bit more fluid than most people's. But I think DEC managed to do something that is VERY exciting to HoYayers: It established that the show's view of sexuality is like theirs, that is, fluid. And I don't think there's anything wrong with them getting a little hopeful because of it.

It occurs to me that the thing I find a bit troubling about some of this discussion is the idea that a romantic or sexual connection is being considered as higher or more valuable or deeper or in some way more profound than a rich, non-sexual connection. Either can be shallow or deep, either can be profound or trivial, but a deep friendship (along the lines of what cary was talking about) is a gem to be treasured and can last a lifetime outside of sexual or romantic involvements. Adding sex or romance to the mix doesn't necessarily make the friendship better, just different. And I don't think the writers are going there or opening up the possibility of going there, but it shouldn't trouble anyone that I think that, and I'm sure it probably doesn't. ;-) The only analogy I can think of tv-wise is the sex in the city gals: Big got it when he realized their friendship was the absolutely stable and ongoing refuge in each of their lives and that if he married one of them, he was taking on all four. Likewise anyone who gets involved with House or Wilson is going to have to deal with both of them unless they change how they live their lives. In a way, their relationship, though truly golden in terms of how well it is written and acted and how interesting it is to view on the show, it's also probably holding them both back from dealing with their own issues. That's what I hope Wilson is doing with CTB, letting go his vise-like grip on teaching House a lesson in humility, in misreading House's detachment and scientific interest as inhuman, in forcing him to follow strategies toward what Wilson imagines should make him less miserable, etc. and taking into account who House actually is and that what will make him happy may be altogether different from what makes Wilson happy. I hope we see Wilson living his own life, finding a connection with someone who fits in his world. But then you have to take into account that, after all, it's Chinatown, er, House...

I was so happy when I left the "strike"thread, and now this thread has made me sad. I don't want this to happen on the board I love so much. It is not necessary, I feel sure most of the people here are broadminded enough to understand all points of view, even if they don't agree. Let's not make this into a religious war, with people trying to convert each other. While I'm not a Hoyayer, that doesn't mean I would mind if the relation between House and Wilson would turn into a romantic and/or sexual one. It's just what I think/believe, based on what I see, and has absolutely nothing to do with what I feel or want. What I want is for House to remain alone, with Wilson as his friend. That's what I would like to happen, and perhaps it will. That doesn't make me any better or worse than people who want House to end up with Cameron, Cuddy or Wilson. We have had subtext for all of them, and it's up to the writers. Thank heavens they are now able to decide for us. Trying to end on a happy note... :(

wary wrote: My point is that the relationship does not require "romance" to take a new step, to become more emotionally intense or profound. If it were romantic, then, yes, sex could, perhaps should, be a natural part of that evolution, a wonderful expression of a certain kind of love. And, to me, your point is correct. But I think the point for the H/W shippers is validation. Would this discussion happen if House had shown that kind of behaviour toward a woman? Would have had any doubt on his feelings? And why do we need validation? Because we never get any. That's Lagniappe point (if I understand her first post correctly). It's not about sex, I think it's not even about romance - ok, for some slashers it might be, but not all of them - but it's about the potencial to go there, against all odds. To get the recognition that what we see in the subtext isn't there just because the writers like to throw us a bone once in a while, but because is valid, it makes sense and it wasn't ridicule or delusional. Slashers are defensive because usually their POV are rarely taken into account. Personally, I don't care it they are straight, bi or gay - I watch the show because I love their connection, their relationship is the heart of the show for me. As long as I can see their bond - in whatever form - I'm happy. It happens that the people who I share this opinion are, most of them, slashers, so by this definition I'm in a box with a slash label on it. And I'm fine with that :wink: