Pretty Girl Kill Again?: Thirteen

I know that TPTB are now claiming they stay away from boards, but do you all think they have a clue that we are not interested in 13 and that some of us downright hate the character (and not in the good way)? They continue to push her as though oblivious. Yea yea, I realize they're not going to state publicly that they've made a mistake with the character; I'm just wondering if you all think they realize it or if they are truly oblivious to it. Tony Soprano was a downright despicable character, but he managed to show me lots of vulnerability and humanity. I "hated" him, but in the "good" way... I enjoyed watching his depravity and evil side, figuring out his motivations, etc. When I saw him occasionally be a good father or a good husband, he temporarily redeemed himself. I have none of that with 13. I resent her presence, I resent her violent outbursts against House, I resent that she's rarely (never?) held accountable for anything she does, and I resent that she's boring. bailey, I can't stand that scene either. I'm not sure it's supposed to display 13's hypocrisy so much as her indecisiveness or something. Remember even in House's Head, she couldn't make a decision even when House was yelling at her to stick a needle in the bus driver's heart? She finally made a decision to do it, but he had to yell at her. Yet, other times, she acts like a big strong girl and is quite decisive, like when she does un-anesthetized biopsies on her boss. :roll: Or maybe that scene is just to show her internal struggle about treating a patient she knows personally. Her inability to be objective about someone she knows... that was sort of her "theme" during that episode. She stopped Kutner from watching the video but then realized that if the patient had been a stranger, then she would not have stopped him. The poor line delivery did not help matters there.

I know that TPTB are now claiming they stay away from boards, but do you all think they have a clue that we are not interested in 13 and that some of us downright hate the character (and not in the good way)? Well, if we can get quotes from DS saying that the online fans were right -- Ridiculously Old Fraud was brilliant -- then it wouldn't be too much to assume that he's heard complaints about 13 as well. Then again, the question really is -- which boards is he reading? I admit, I'm not usually on the Fox boards, but they strike me as being much more sycophantic than the more independent boards (such as ours). OTOH, at various points in the series, he's probably heard nasty, "Get this stupid idiot off your stupid show" remarks about every single one of his characters, so the real question is, to whom should he listen? Okay, that was most likely more for TPTB thread, but I thought I'd throw it in here.

I know that TPTB are now claiming they stay away from boards, but do you all think they have a clue that we are not interested in 13 and that some of us downright hate the character (and not in the good way)? Just because some boards don't like her, that doesn't mean that other boards feel the same way. I've seen plenty of positive comments about Thirteen on various sites out there. Besides, some of us downright hate almost all of the characters at one time or another, if you followed the discussion on this board alone. How many times were people calling for them to get rid of Chase during the Vogler arc when it first aired, or Cameron or Foreman on a regular basis? ETA: I'm not talking about the Fox boards. I've never visited there at all. I'm talking LJ and other sites.

Just because some boards don't like her, that doesn't mean that other boards feel the same way. I've seen plenty of positive comments about Thirteen on various sites out there. I have too, but I'd take the ones over on the fox boards with a grain of salt. I lurk there & the head mod (a self-admitted arm of TPTB) has developed a recent habit of posting pats on the back for members who make "nice" posts about 13 and/or OW in a really laughably obvious way (& I'm beginning to wonder which of the OPs are by sockpuppets - they are usually in the middle of a page or two of anti-13 posts). There was also a thread that blew up over the whole Remy/Rena/Rema thing along the lines of "see, even TPTB aren't even that invested that they bother keep track of what her name is, why should we be?", but the thread got poofed (I wished I'd capped it, some of it was actually pretty funny) & the fox site updated with the "correct" name later that day. IMO, TPTB are definitely paying attention at least on the fox boards. JMO, but while there's definitely some 13 like (I wouldn't qualify it as love & there's nothing like the fannish adoration C&C get) out there, there's also awful lot of indifference or hate that strikes me as qualitatively different to, for example, the Chase hate that sprung up when he went to Vogler or Foreman stuck Cameron with the needle or Cameron's various idiocies. That character hate was generally tied to some specific incident or arc where they ran afoul of House or moral standards (like the "Chase hates fat people" thing)_ - with 13 it seems its much more diffuse "go away, you bore me to tears", "stop yanking our chains over 13, we know you're not going to fire OW" & in particular, "stop shoving her down my throat" before the new eps have even screened. The PR strategy is really laughably bad if that's the result of TPTB trying to get the audience interested in her. *Side note - yes, there are people who like OW on the show. including the one that posted "it brings me back to the glory days of the OC". (That's a direct quote).

Well, if we can get quotes from DS saying that the online fans were right -- Ridiculously Old Fraud was brilliant -- then it wouldn't be too much to assume that he's heard complaints about 13 as well. Well, I don't read or hear or remember every single David Shore quote ever. :lol: Then again, the question really is -- which boards is he reading? I admit, I'm not usually on the Fox boards, but they strike me as being much more sycophantic than the more independent boards (such as ours). There is plenty of hate for 13 on the fox board. so the real question is, to whom should he listen? I'm not saying he should "listen" to us or change his show based on what he reads from us. I don't want him to do that; I want him to follow his vision—so long as his vision (and its execution) works. My point is, sometimes an artist is too enmeshed in his own creation to realize how it's coming off to outsiders. Even great artists like DS. It seems to me that he's so in love with his creation (13) that he can't possibly fathom that it doesn't work. I just wonder if he's aware that the character is not interesting to a lot of the hardcore viewers. (And can he see that the acting is wooden and stiff and not compelling?) Why continue using a character who doesn't interest the fans and whose portrayer cannot make us connect? It doesn't make sense. DS's vision is important, and I respect it. But I am curious what he sees here that I don't... usually I can "see" his vision and understand what he's doing with it. Of course, if House is DS's proxy, then I suppose DS probably won't admit he's made a mistake. :lol:

Look, 13 is not my favorite character. She is, in fact, my least favorite female character (per the Whinies award). But that doesn't mean I think they should just toss her out. With the Huntington's diagnosis now, I think they're entering a far more interesting potential for an arc for her and can get past the annoying "mystery" issue which didn't really work. I think there's a lot more potential for exploring the issues of someone facing a death sentence at this point and, more importantly from my perspective and for the show as a whole, to explore how that impacts House -- how it reflects with his own issues, how it contrasts. I think there's the possibility here for a hell of a lot more interesting arc than Cameron's crush -- so why the hell should Shore and company dump her just when things get interesting?

Well, I'm happy for you that you find her interesting and look forward to seeing her in S5. I am tired of being told to give 13 a "chance." She has had 15 episodes in which to capture my intrigue, and she has not done so. Chase, Foreman, and Cameron managed to capture my intrigue within one episode. I'm no fan of Foreman and Cameron, but at least they were interesting from the beginning. I have cut 13 a lot of slack due to the chaos of the survivor arc, etc. But enough is enough. A character is only as interesting as her writing and the actor's portrayal. Anyway, where's the big mystery? I know more about her than I do about Taub and Kutner put together. I'm not intrigued, and I don't see myself being intrigued in S5.

Or maybe that scene is just to show her internal struggle about treating a patient she knows personally. Her inability to be objective about someone she knows... that was sort of her "theme" during that episode. She stopped Kutner from watching the video but then realized that if the patient had been a stranger, then she would not have stopped him. The poor line delivery did not help matters there. I think what further didn't help in that scene was she wasn't calling herself out for not being objective, she was laying it on Kutner who was, for all intents and purposes, being objective. I could handle her if she had admitted that she was losing perspective but she blamed Kutner for losing his, after she had slammed him out. I'm thinking maybe a better actress might have sold this scene? Or that some pronouns accidentally got switched and no one noticed? Because otherwise, it makes not one whit of sense to me.

Good point, bailey. I hadn't even considered the notion that she blamed Kutner while she was the one who lost perspective. You're absolutely right about that. She said something like, "If it had been anyone else, you would have watched the video." As you stated, he was about to watch the video. He only stopped because 13 slammed the laptop cover on his hand. So what on earth was she talking about? Maybe we are meant to see that she loves to blame other people for her own mistakes/poor actions. Or something. I don't know. She did take responsibility for killing the patient and his dog. I guess the writing for her is inconsistent. Then again—spoiler ahead in white—in that one clip on the fox site, she says something to House like, "You're the one who told me to get tested." As though it's all House's fault that she knows she has Hungtington's. Er, how about taking responsibility for the fact that she decided to test herself? And anyway, House is not annoyed with her for getting tested; he says he's annoyed with her for letting her Huntington's diagnosis color her every medical opinion and every personal opinion. So I think maybe she does have a blame-others mentality. I guess I find that boring because I grew out of that stage by the time I was 18.

What possible story arc can her character have after this Huntington's thing? I hope they don't plan on dragging that particular arc out over Seasons 5, 6 and 7 as I've never felt less for a dying character. They'll hook her up with Foreman - IMO its fairly obvious that's what's coming & we'll have the equivalent for them of the C&C hospital sexage.

Just my personal opinion, obviously DS will do as he pleases, but I believe they almost have to get rid of Thirteen at some point. What possible story arc can her character have after this Huntington's thing? I hope they don't plan on dragging that particular arc out over Seasons 5, 6 and 7 as I've never felt less for a dying character. Many people don't become symptomatic with Huntington's until they're in their 40s. So, after they explore what they want to about her genetic disease vs. House's stuff, they can basically ignore it with the occasional reference (like Cameron's PDH.)

I know that TPTB are now claiming they stay away from boards, but do you all think they have a clue that we are not interested in 13 and that some of us downright hate the character (and not in the good way)? Given how much they're pushing her in the promos, I'd say either they don't know or they don't care. The former is poor marketing, the latter is... hubris? *Side note - yes, there are people who like OW on the show. including the one that posted "it brings me back to the glory days of the OC". (That's a direct quote). :lol: Maybe that's the target audience? I think the writing for the character is poor and they're making a lot of mistakes if they want us to care about her. She's supposed to be withdrawn and refusing to engage with other people but she's also "the one who cares". You can't do both, you can't keep yourself apart from people and yet still care for them. She wouldn't tell anyone her real name or where she grew up as if they were a big clue to her mystery and in the end it had nothing to do with her "mysteries" of Huntingdon's and bisexuality. (Bisexuality is the new fad in high school so yawn about finding it shocking on her.) Why continue to call her Thirteen when it keep the audience from becoming engaged with her when we're supposed to care about her illness? Why have her say she's not happy working for House and have us keep thinking House will either finally fire her for cause or she will quit when it never happens? It's crying wolf and what that gets you in the end is indifference. Some people loved Chase and Cameron and other people hated them but at least they managed to engage the viewers other than in a "get off my screen already" capacity. What possible story arc can her character have after this Huntington's thing? I hope they don't plan on dragging that particular arc out over Seasons 5, 6 and 7 as I've never felt less for a dying character. That's the real problem, well one of them anyway, that we are supposed to feel both sorry and fascinated by her and how she deals with the sword of Huntingdon's over her head. But it's the same problem I had with Foreman, that I didn't really care whether he quit or stayed and so the whole Foreman resignation arc, all 11 episodes of it (from House Training to WIT), didn't engage me except around how other people reacted. Unlike Amber or Scooter or even Cole (who had religion and single-fatherhood) there is nothing unique enough about her to build future story lines on beyond her disease. We've had the 'losing a mother at a young age' with Chase. Cameron's PDH played into several story arcs, from House thinking the only reason she could like him was because he was damaged (showing House's feelings about himself) to Cameron learning to deal with death and letting people die, to her growth from her crush on House to trying a real relationship with Chase. Once Thirteen learns to deal with her death sentence and not let it affect her treatment of patients, there's nowhere else to really go with it other than whether she should get married or have children. but rather the feminine form of "Remus". Do you think that being suckled by a wolf would explain it?

You can't do both, you can't keep yourself apart from people and yet still care for them. Isn't that the perfect description of Gregory House? I mean, I will grant you that the writing for her character has been less than stellar, but they're obviously trying to make her the "new House," which would, in essence, make her the "new Foreman." I'm not trying to force anybody to fall in love with her, and I'm certainly not her biggest fan (although I feel someone needs to stand up for her every now and again), but I am in the camp that feels, well, TPTB fell in love with her for a reason and hopefully one that's more than just the Huntington's. I hope that they have another storyline waiting for her in the wings, but I think a lot of us are just trying to stay optimistic. Maybe I'll give up on her at the end of next season, but for now, she still has something to offer, something to learn.

I am tired of being told to give 13 a "chance." She has had 15 episodes in which to capture my intrigue, and she has not done so. Chase, Foreman, and Cameron managed to capture my intrigue within one episode. As they say in the interwebs, WORD. I am so sick of being told to give poor widdle 13 a chance. I GAVE HER A CHANCE. I gave her the same chance I gave the others. I was rooting for Amber to stick around. If she could win me over, 13 could have too if the writing had been good and the actress had been capable. As it is, neither the writing was good nor was the actress capable of making me feel anything other than annoyance for the character. I cry at Oreo commericals, okay? I'm sentimental and compassionate and my heartstrings are pretty easy to tug. I felt NOTHING when 13 got her positive diagnosis. As empathetic of a person as I am, I should have felt at least a little twinge of sorrow. But OW can't sell the character. It didn't take me 15 episodes to like Chase, Cameron, and Foreman. It didn't take me 15 episodes to have emotional reactions to those characters and to find them interesting. But the most important comparison is Amber, another female candidate in the Survivor mess. If Anne Dudek was able to sell me on the CTB, a character I probably wasn't supposed to like, then it's a testament that she is a better actress than OW and Amber was a better character. Even Kutner whom I find relatively useless has a charm, so while he really hasn't "won me over," I at least find him tolerable and not nearly as annoying as 13 and Taub. So, they have HAD their chance. I gave it to them. I don't need to hear excuses about the writer's strike or whatever else is the excuse of the day. 13 as a character sucks and OW as an actress sucks. YMMV, of course.

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