I'm in the Room!: Dr. Allison Cameron

We got the best links, bailey. :D I think they could up the ratings if they'd stop being so sexist and give Chase's backside a quarter of the attention Cuddy's gets. I think they could up the ratings if they gave Chase a quarter of the attention that Cuddy's backside gets.

The one time it seemed like they might be doing that in Guardian Angels brought out a streak of Cameron-hate for taking Wilson's place in House's life. Well, that's exactly what happened in that episode. If Cameron being House's friend means Wilson gets one scene per episode, I'll pass. Wilson and Cuddy are able to both be in his life in significant ways at the same time. They have yet to prove that it can be done by making the ducklings his friends. Except for, I guess, Chase in NMMNG.

I meant Maureen Ryan. Irish name, four letters, not my country, Sunday night after dinner. Are you trying to refer to Mo Ryan of the Chicago Tribune? Who said back in April that it was time to cull the cast and that Chase should go, and maybe time for Cameron to go too? (The only original fellow she said should "stay, maybe" was Foreman, who is a "pleasingly sardonic House Jr.") And, for the record, she called for culling Thirteen and Chase, Cameron was a "go maybe", Kutner and Foreman should "stay maybe" and Taub and Amber should stay.

I meant Maureen Ryan. Irish name, four letters, not my country, Sunday night after dinner. Are you trying to refer to Mo Ryan of the Chicago Tribune? Who said back in April that it was time to cull the cast and that Chase should go, and maybe time for Cameron to go too? (The only original fellow she said should "stay, maybe" was Foreman, who is a "pleasingly sardonic House Jr.") This is true. Although since saying that she has noted that the show has seemed "off" and in comments on Sepinwall's blog she admitted to being bored now, an entirely new sensation for her. She didn't bother writing up the last couple of "House" episodes on her blog, although that may be because she's pretty deep into Mad Men love at the moment. (I was surprised she didn't mention anything about "Joy", at the very least, because she is a big fan of L.E., as far as I can tell.)

True, she said the premiere felt a little off, but she also said it was better than "97 percent of the rest of " what was on TV. And she's also acknowledged that other viewers and reviewers enjoyed Lucas Douglas (the guy she was "bored with" in the Sepinwall blog), even though she didn't. My point, though, goes back to the claim that somehow reviewers have some better, keener insight than fans, and my point is that their opinion is just an opinion. (God knows that Ausiello is a professional TV writer, but the man cannot write anything without a 'ship attatched to -- recall the "NASCAR racer" that House was supposed to be attracted to last season. He should be prime example that reviewers and professional critics/writers are not infallible.) If MoRyan were a perfect sage, then Chase would be gone. If the NYTimes writer had been a perfect sage, then we'd be seeing House turn into a Bronte saga with Cameron as the "chick lit" lead. Sepinwall has praised this season. USA Today's critic (his name slips my mind just now) hated Tritter, but has been full of praise this season. Critics are not a golden standard to determine how we, the viewers, should see or feel about any show or any character.

Critics are not a golden standard to determine how we, the viewers, should see or feel about any show or any character. No, they aren't. And I could be misunderstanding Ariadne's point, but I believe she was pointing to critics at various times in the show's history as a demonstration of some of the grander themes of the show being represented and acknowledged in the media at large. I suspect her intention was to show that because very well known, respected media critics were actually discussing the potential of House v. Cameron and/or Cameron as a character in her own right (which isn't something we see anything of for any other character beyond House, is it?) that it validates her continued presence on the show, something we have seen very little of in the past year plus. It also indicates that historically there was much more press and sophisticated discussion around that character beyond "What the hell is this crap?" and "Shut up, Cameron!" (Something you likely would not know if this forum were your only guide.) Though I agree it doesn't tell us anything about tomorrow's storylines or where TPTB go from here.

Thank you for the insult to my intelligence. Real ego booster, that. I apologize, I didn't mean to offend you. I should have put it better. And I could be misunderstanding Ariadne's point, but I believe she was pointing to critics at various times in the show's history as a demonstration of some of the grander themes of the show being represented and acknowledged in the media at large. I suspect her intention was to show that because very well known, respected media critics were actually discussing the potential of House v. Cameron and/or Cameron as a character in her own right (which isn't something we see anything of for any other character beyond House, is it?) that it validates her continued presence on the show, something we have seen very little of in the past year plus. It also indicates that historically there was much more press and sophisticated discussion around that character beyond "What the hell is this crap?" and "Shut up, Cameron!" (Something you likely would not know if this forum were your only guide.) Thank you, that's better than I expressed it (hurriedly deletes what she had written). I was also trying to say that various professional writers, who are hopefully not invested in their own particular ships as we are, saw the House/Cameron interaction in seasons 1 and 2 as not solely a crush on her part and tolerance on his as has been often stated here and on other message boards. This is going way off track. The only further thing I will say is that even Maureen Ryan, the most fangirl of the TV columnists, saw House/Cameron in season 1. In season 2 she fell in love with Cuddy and House/Cuddy. But in spite of what she wrote about who should stay and who should go at the end of season 4, at the start of season 5 she admitted she could now see the problems in the show that the posters to her column had been complaining about in season 4.

But to dwell solely on who Cameron was in Season 1 or 2 denies that character her growth. She's not the same person she was when she first encountered House. She's learned hard lessons -- about life, about herself -- and she's growing up and moving on. To me, the most important step in her evolution was the moment she decided it was time to give Chase a chance, not merely as a sex kitten, but as someone who wanted "more," without any guarantees of how that would turn out. She finally left the (mostly) unrequited crush behind, she stopped seeing herself as the widow and took a chance. But then I'm no fan of the ingenue/mentor relationship and always wanted Jane Eyre to kick some ass and stay the hell away from Rochester. This is going way off track. The only further thing I will say is that even Maureen Ryan, the most fangirl of the TV columnists, saw House/Cameron in season 1. In season 2 she fell in love with Cuddy and House/Cuddy. But in spite of what she wrote about who should stay and who should go at the end of season 4, at the start of season 5 she admitted she could now see the problems in the show that the posters to her column had been complaining about in season 4. Of course she only says to cut the cast. Not that they should bring back Cameron or any of the originals to their former status. Heck, I've thought the same thing. (I'd cut Cameron, Chase and Foreman, despite how much I like Chase.)

Cameron grew, as did Chase. Foreman is still stuck where he was in season 1. I guess leaving full time status on the show is the price one pays for growing up. But the question was whether the feelings were only on her side or House felt something too. I think the show gave both text and subtext that they're weren't. YMMV. (I'd cut Cameron, Chase and Foreman, despite how much I like Chase.) Only if you think that all the show needs is House, Wilson and Cuddy. KTT have no real fanbase yet while Chase and Cameron have substantial ones. In fact, if Fox were to do the kind of popularity analysis CNN did for Sarah Palin today, I suspect they'd find that Thirteen turns off more viewers than she brings to the show. That's true for either Chase or Cameron.

So, I think we've established that everyone in the entire entertainment universe recognizes that Cameron is not the same person that she was in Seasons One - Two, and now we need to figure out if that is a good thing or not. Therefore, questions I would like to see answered in some orderly manner by... whomever: 1. Does Cameron belong in a) her fellowship under House, or b) her attending position in the ER? And what would it do for her character growth should she go back? 2. What could her relationship with Chase bring to her character growth? Or, what could it potentially it take away from it? 3. Does she still have romantic feelings for House? Should she? ETA: KTT have no real fanbase I'm a fan of KTT.

Therefore, questions I would like to see answered in some orderly manner by... whomever: 1. Does Cameron belong in a) her fellowship under House, or b) her attending position in the ER? And what would it do for her character growth should she go back? 2. What could her relationship with Chase bring to her character growth? Or, what could it potentially it take away from it? 3. Does she still have romantic feelings for House? Should she? ETA: KTT have no real fanbase I'm a fan of KTT. Ditto, I have to say I agree about KTT. I couldn't say that in the beginning, but they're growing on me. I downright love Kutner. 1. I don't think she does beling in the fellowship under House anymore. At the same time, I think her position in the ER causes the viewer to stretch the imagination a bit. A lead up to it would have been good (I'm sure in a real hospital there are people working in the ER who would typically be next in line for such a position...but then again, this is reel life, not real life). Things would revert back to the way they were if she went back. Cameron wouldn't grow as a character; she'd be stuck doing menial paperwork for someone else, where instead she's responsible for so much more now. It's unrealistic for someone in medicine to remain as another doctor's minion without striving for something more. I think some have an issue separating JM (or JS) from Cameron (Chase, respectively) in that, as long time viewers, we want to see more of these characters we've watched for so long. There's comfort in familiarity. And while less screen time isn't great for JS or JM, it might be for Cameron and Chase because it means they've grown, moved upwards in their careers, etc. And I think we also have to be aware that because of the writer's strike, we likely didn't get to see the culmination of last season's original intent at bringing the old and new teams into a more cohesive unit. You know, originally, I wanted the old team back. Seriously wanted them back, but I'm beginning to see that it has to be this way. Far more screen time for the ducklings would be nice, but as for plot and storylines, there's a lot more to be done when House has a back up group to rely on and to challenge him (because they can challenge him in ways the newbies can't yet). 2. I don't know about her relationship with Chase. I think it's about time that she lets go of her past, and maybe watching Wilson experience his own grief and counseling him has helped her see that. It could be a good thing for the two of them. Or not, lol. Lot of good I am in answering this, huh? 3. I think she's matured. I think she appreciates him as a mentor, as a skilled doctor who makes gutsy calls. Do I think she still loves him? Maybe...not on a romantic level, but more on a respect level. I would think that whether or not I shipped Huddy or H/W, or if I thought House should be a crabby old hermit.

1. Does Cameron belong in a) her fellowship under House, or b) her attending position in the ER? And what would it do for her character growth should she go back? I'll go with c) "neither." Sending Cameron to the ER reeked of plot convenience not character development. (And plot wise, it's not even terribly convenient except that it makes House hang out in the ER about a million times more than he used to.) The official explanation was that she could do good there and get it out of her system. I have no idea what means. I suspect TPTB don't either. What would that even look like? Would we recognize it when it happened? 2. What could her relationship with Chase bring to her character growth? Or, what could it potentially it take away from it? The problem with trying to grow two characters, essentially offscreen, is that most of the growth has to be fanwanked. Why did Cameron quit her job at the end of Human Error? Prior to that episode, were there any clues whatsoever that she was unhappy with her job and looking elsewhere for employment? (Or, even, prior to the last 5 minutes of that episode were there any clues?) Did she quit to be with Chase? If so, why would they be at the same hospital again? Why not elsewhere? What does Cameron see in Chase? What does Chase see in Cameron? I really have no idea. I suspect I could better answer this question if we actually saw them interacting as a couple, but we really don't. The only glimpses we've seen of them together have been so slight as to draw any major conclusions, other than there seems to be a lot of suspicion at play. The only thing I could say definitively is that they're not extraordinarily happy together. I don't even know if they could be because, again, I have no idea why they like each other. 3. Does she still have romantic feelings for House? Should she? I haven't seen Cameron having romantic feelings for House since the end of season one. On the other hand, I don't conflate Cameron liking House as a person, respecting him as brilliant, or expressing concern for his well being as being romantic in nature or reflective of an on-going crush. In fact, if Fox were to do the kind of popularity analysis CNN did for Sarah Palin today, I suspect they'd find that Thirteen turns off more viewers than she brings to the show. Ouch.

I was also trying to say that various professional writers, who are hopefully not invested in their own particular ships as we are, saw the House/Cameron interaction in seasons 1 and 2 as not solely a crush on her part and tolerance on his as has been often stated here and on other message boards. The fact that House and Cameron were being discussed in the media as a couple in season one/early season two is because Cameron's feelings had been raised, so it was a viable question: where was this going to lead? However, that's not the same thing as saying they believed that House had romantic feelings for Cameron and they saw that in the writing. As soon as Stacy made her entrance, there was a huge media frenzy over Sela Ward, who was seen as a strong romantic presence on the show and when she left, there were a lot of media questions on when she'd be back. When season two went on and House showed no interest in pursuing Cameron, reviewers other than Ausiello and Kristin moved on. Cameron's feelings have often been referred to as her crush in the media, and that goes back to season one. House hasn't been written up consistently in any season as Jane Eyre--that article notwithstanding. And the spark between House and Cuddy has been mentioned in the media since the pilot. I haven't seen Cameron having romantic feelings for House since the end of season one. On the other hand, I don't conflate Cameron liking House as a person, respecting him as brilliant, or expressing concern for his well being as being romantic in nature or reflective of an on-going crush. I've seen some suggestive writing that Cameron was still struggling with her crush into season three--the kiss seemed a big pointer--but I agree that we've seen her ever moving away from that season one crush. I also think that we've not seen House indicate any romantic interest in Cameron, though we have seen him indicate he likes her, appreciates her looks and doesn't mind when they have reason to interact, so I don't see the argument (not yours, the one that sparked this particular discussion) that the writers suddenly made a left turn on developing House and Cameron as the romantic couple of the show. Things developed--just not that way, and it was never clear that was the way it was going to go. Season one had some ambiguous episodes, season two went a different way. Why did Cameron quit her job at the end of Human Error? Prior to that episode, were there any clues whatsoever that she was unhappy with her job and looking elsewhere for employment? (Or, even, prior to the last 5 minutes of that episode were there any clues?) Did she quit to be with Chase? If so, why would they be at the same hospital again? Why not elsewhere? What does Cameron see in Chase? What does Chase see in Cameron? I thought there was lots of fodder given on these points and the fact that they weren't nailed down concretely is par for the course with the show--and actually, I think leads to better writing than the few times the show goes with concrete on the nose writing to make a point. I'm not a big fan of Foreman's arcs for this reason. I think Cameron always had an appreciation for Chase's sexiness--she called him for a booty call and the sex was great. She was interested in seeing if she could influence his feelings about her as Foreman said she could, when she did the sex talk scene. She's never been indifferent to him. What she was, was judgmental about him. Due to Chase's private nature and his decisions during the Vogler arc, she felt she knew that he was a shallow rich kid playboy and she didn't respect that. Not that that made her not view him as sexy. She's already a bit conflicted on how she feels about him. Then when she upped the stakes between them to include sex, she did so specifying that he was the last guy she'd fall in love with. But what she found out when they spent such intimate time together was that actually she hadn't known him very well, and the ways he surprised were all good ways. He was sweet and sensitive and loving, not the shallow playboy she was expecting. I thought the FWB arc made it clear that Cameron was enjoying her time with Chase in and out of bed. When she dumped him for declaring feelings, she was incongruously angry with him, because she missed what they had. If it was just great sex, there's a lot of other willing men out there. I think it was shown the Chase that she missed was the one who got her "not stolen" flowers and that he was very very different from the Chase she thought she knew when she said he was the last man she'd fall for. That leaves the issue of Cameron leading Chase around by the balls and Chase just going along with it. I think Chase's arc was finding his voice in setting boundaries with people--he had just done it professionally, and I think it was no coincidence that was when Cameron opened up enough to want a FWB with him. During the FWB, he found his voice personally as well, and like House, Cameron found him no pushover when he decided he needed to make a stand. That he has a different vibe from House when he stands firm is all to the good, I think, for Cameron, as there's no room for two divas in one relationship. She needs someone who can call her on things but still appreciates all that get up and go. Chase's personality is a good match and I think we saw Cameron realise that. As for why Cameron with Chase, he's been shown to be very attracted sexually, to care when she's upset and to like her get up and go. He can see her flaws--he's been the one more than once to point out where she's being inconsistent--but he's the character who is least judgemental and most sensitive about reading between the lines. I think the biggest issue for Chase with Cameron is whether she's really committed to him, and there's good reason for his insecurity there. Cameron's admission of being overfocused on House in early season four and behaviour during Ugly would make most people question what she was feeling. As for why quit her job, I think we saw that the ducklings were all ready to spread their wings in late season three--they just all got there via different routes. Foreman as usual was the loudest about being ready to go, Chase showed he was ready but didn't want to leave, and Cameron took in that things were going to change and she had to decide where she stood. I don't think it was her being specifically unhappy with some condition of the job, but rather a recognition that an era was ending and she was ready to go, too. I think the show has always left room in its storylines for viewers to look at what happened and form their own conclusion why. I think Cameron and Chase's relationship was much better developed myself than Wilson's when he resumed writing prescriptions for House. But again, some people have no issue with that one.

KTT have no real fanbase I'm a fan of KTT. In the context of Namaste's post, I mean independent of House, Wilson and Cuddy. There is a fanbase for both Cameron and Chase that is separate from those who like H/W/C. In that sense they are 'value added' to the show. Would you watch the show for the new team if you were tired of H/W/C? I like Kutner well enough but I wouldn't watch for him. Taub bores me so I switch channels when he's on but Thirteen irritates me enough that I turn off the TV and leave during her scenes. I like Wilson very much but not how House and Cuddy currently are and I got bored with the House/Wilson/Cuddy show in the second half of season 3 (Alone was the first episode of House I didn't watch all the way through). Cameron is a main reason I'm still watching this show and if she goes, it will be easy for me to leave unless the quality improves a great deal. I'm not alone in feeling that was about Cameron or Chase. That's what I mean by a fanbase independent of the other characters. OW may have some fans who feel like that too but I suspect 13 is turning off a lot more people than she's bringing in. I think one of the reasons that Shore is keeping Cameron and Chase around and pulling them out of the closet for sweeps and post-Superbowl episodes when he needs high ratings is that he knows they have fans who will watch just for them. The problem with trying to grow two characters, essentially offscreen, is that most of the growth has to be fanwanked. Why did Cameron quit her job at the end of Human Error? Prior to that episode, were there any clues whatsoever that she was unhappy with her job and looking elsewhere for employment? (Or, even, prior to the last 5 minutes of that episode were there any clues?) Did she quit to be with Chase? If so, why would they be at the same hospital again? Why not elsewhere? What does Cameron see in Chase? What does Chase see in Cameron? I really have no idea. I suspect I could better answer this question if we actually saw them interacting as a couple, but we really don't. The only glimpses we've seen of them together have been so slight as to draw any major conclusions, other than there seems to be a lot of suspicion at play. The only thing I could say definitively is that they're not extraordinarily happy together. I don't even know if they could be because, again, I have no idea why they like each other. Again, better expressed than I could. Cameron said at the end of Human Error that she was leaving because "I've gotten all I can from this job." Most board posters did not believe her, possibly because we've never really seen her demonstrate it other than in Living the Dream. (Hoselton deserves a smackdown for how he wrote her in Joy, she was more competent in season 1.) The whole idea that Cameron and Chase got together and remain together (especially after Chase's public accusation that she slept with House in NMMNG) needs to be fanwanked to make it happen and even then it makes no sense to me. I don't mind doing some of the work but to ask me to do it all is ridiculous unless Shore's going to listen to me as I logically argue out why it wouldn't work.

In the context of Namaste's post, I mean independent of House, Wilson and Cuddy. There is a fanbase for both Cameron and Chase that is separate from those who like H/W/C. In that sense they are 'value added' to the show. Would you watch the show for the new team if you were tired of H/W/C? The show is not "Ducklings MD." It never has been and it never will be. CC&F could no more be at the center of this show than would be TT&K, so it's a moot point, and to argue on it would be both off topic for this thread and bringing back a dead horse that's been argued over time and time and time again.

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