I Don't Want to be Like You: Dr. Eric Foreman
If you can, indeed, find anything left to discuss about him that the show hasn't already covered, do it right here.

Moving this discussion from the fan fiction thread if anyone is interested... Foreman? Is he the "smartest"? Does he have the "most prestigioius fellowship"? Do the other ducklings defer to him? I'm thinking the answer to that is NO in all aspects. Chase, Cameron, and Foreman all have the same fellowship, the PPTH fellowship with House. We have no reason to believe that any of them have better treatment than the others. Foreman had a 4.0. So we know that he was a higher academic student than Cameron. We do not know how he compares to Chase as far as grades go. We do know Chase is younger and a year ahead of him though, so that leaves room to fanwank that Chase must have been a pretty impressive student to get through medical school and intensivist training and get the prestigious fellowship with House all by the age of 25-29 depending on whatever wonky timeline they're using for Chase's age. But is Foreman the smartest? I don't think so. They ALL can name various diseases at the drop of the hat, so they seem to have a similar base supply of knowledge. However.... Foreman is the one least likely to get a diagnosis right and least likely to think outside the box. I even remember that he's been told, "Do what the person who isn't a neurologist suggested." I can't remember the episode. Also, he dismissd the right diagnosis in MLC for "no neurological symptoms" and it didn't occur to him that height could be a neurological symptom. HE's the neuroglogist. He should have considered that. He also doesn't trust his own judgement as House said and Foreman demonstrated. Do the other ducklings defer to him? I don't see a lot of evidence for that either. He was briefly put in charge, but they still paid more attention to House. We've also seen Foreman defer to Chase's judgement on multiple occassions. I think that's a matter of who has the better idea at the time, not a matter of deference.

I don't think anyone's ever said that Foreman was smarter or better than the other fellows. What he does have is a stellar CV that makes him look better on paper. Always getting a 4.0 (I'm assuming a 4-point scale, which is standard in the US) at Johns Hopkins? That's impressive. And I don't think we can automatically say that Chase is somehow better than him in practice because he's younger and was with House a year before Foreman got there. After all, Foreman came to House after med school, residency and four years with Dr. Marty. Chase may have come directly after his residency and his fellowship with House is his sub-specialty training. My view, typically, is that Foreman is set up as a contrast with House in that he has the chops on paper, but cannot make the intuitive leaps in practice. He's a by-the-books doctor. In general that's a very good thing. But of course House is not by the books. I think Foreman is afraid to take intuitive leaps because they're outside his comfort zone. So why would a by-the-books guy want to work with House? I can picture Foreman as going after it specifically because it's one of the most prestigious fellowships in the country. It's another thing that'll look good on his CV, another thing that will set him apart not only from everyone else, but also from his past. Why does he stay? Maybe because he recognizes that House can do things he can't, and he wants to prove himself better than House. Foreman is used to being the smartest guy in the room, and he can't get past that block. He stayed until it was clear he'd never top House -- at which point his pride once again got in the way and he looked for an excuse to explain that he was still "better" than House.

Do most people agree that Foreman's quitting because "he doesn't want to become House" isn't going to work because what he is really trying to run away from is the part of himself which is like the part of House he hates? And what is that exactly? I think it is that he really is ruthless and doesn't care but he thinks he should care and be more compassionate and less ruthlessly scientific...? But it's probably more than that. What exactly did House mean when he said Foreman had been like him since he was seven (?)? Like him in what way exactly? How about parallel father issues? House rejects his father disciplinarian ethos while Foreman rejects his father's religious ethos...? And yet House is at least superficially lacking in compassion (or considers it irrelevent) and is as impatient with excuses, justifications, emotions as his father probably was and Foreman is trying to deny his own dispassionate, scientific position and replace it with a kinder, gentler, "caring about humanity" kind of medicine.... Oh, the contradictions... :lol: I suspect I am not the only one with a rather jaded attitude toward Foreman at the moment, but, if, as I suspect, the bring the ducklings back arc is going to be heavily Foreman-centric, maybe we should start thinking about him again....

Another factor in Chase being the youngest is that he's from Australia. Assuming that's where he was educated, Ten years ago, Australian Medical Schools all admitted students direct from high school to six- or five-year courses. From MedicalColleges.net Foreman probably had 8 years of school (4 of college, 4 of medical school) unless he finished college early while Chase only had 5 or 6. They're both board certified in a specialty so this is the 2nd fellowship for each but Chase could get to that point a couple of years early thanks to the difference in educational systems. As far as the others deferring to Foreman -- from "Failure to Communicate: Foreman: Chase, we're not done with the differential. Chase: You're not my boss.

The cool thing about Foreman's character is that he's a stark contrast to House in some ways and Chase in others. I do believe that of the three fellows, Foreman probably looks the best on paper. We know for sure that he looks better than at least Cam, but that doesn't make him the smartest. I actually think the three of them are probably all pretty equal in terms of book smarts. What Foreman is, is the most confident/cocky. It's good that he's confident, since it's near impossible for others to have faith in you if you have none in yourself. (I think it spoke volumes that House trusted Foreman had seen the clot in Autopsy). It's obviously not so good that his confidence often spills over into cockiness. Foreman's a good doctor and a brilliant guy, but he's no House. Sometimes the absolute smartest thing you can do is recognize who you are and what your limitations are, and Foreman clearly struggles with this.

I'm enjoying this latest dissection of the fellows. Just a point about Chase's training. I don't think his fellowship with House could be his first. The series makes a point about Chase being an intensivist; while intensivists or critical care specialists can come from a few different specialities, at least in this country I think the training is undertaken after a residency is completed in internal medicine, anesthesiology etc. This doesn't mean Chase is a "Doogie", but I think we're meant to assume the House fellowship is his second fellowship.

From what I've read about intensivists in doing research for fanfics, they always have some kind of other speciality before the critical care. It can range from pulmonology to nephrology to anesthesiology to surgical care, but there's always some underlying focus before the critical care training. Perhaps Chase's was in surgery, which is why Jesse said he was going to be moving into surgery. Foreman is used to being the smartest guy in the room, and he can't get past that block. I think that's been a lot of his weakness too. He is used to being the smartest one, so it's got to piss him off that he's working with people who have also qualified for this supposedly most prestigious fellowship (which, I agree, Foreman probably went for because of the prestige). So I think it's more comfortable for him to make assumptions about Chase and Cameron to minimalize their achievements so he can--in his own mind--reign superior. He assumes that Cameron is weak, even three years into knowing her. He knows he had a better GPA, so he can feel superior to her. With Chase, he made the assumption that Chase had the position handed to him based on being the rich son of a famous doctor. Foreman doesn't even seem to care if there's any truth in his assumptions, he just believes them anyway. Not caring about the truth behind his assumptions has contributed to him giving less than optimal care to patients and I think that needs to be the biggest part of his wake-up call since he killed Lupe.

I don't think anyone's ever said that Foreman was smarter or better than the other fellows. I don't remember which ep, it was in S1, but at one point House told Chase that Foreman was smarter than him. In those words. About the discrepency between Chase and Foreman's ages, I think that's just because of the age difference between the actors. Remember that Chase's character was supposed to be 35 until they cast the significantly younger JS. I like Namaste's theory on why Foreman went for the fellowship with House. Re Foreman being like House since he was eight years old, I think House meant Foreman's basic nature and I believe him. Foreman is a guy who will stab someone with a tainted needle. Working for House didn't turn him into that, that's who he was all along. I also think that part of Foreman's assiness towards Cameron and Chase - dismissing Cameron as weak because she's caring and, let's face it, because she's a woman and dismissing Chase as a spoiled rich kid - is his way of compensating for his insecurities. Not just about his background, but as cat said for the fact that he's not automatically the smartest guy around anymore when he's at PPTH.

a 26 year old intensivist In the same episode where House says that Chase is 26 Chase later cites dates that put his age at 30. Later he told Andie he was 30. Also if Chase is a boy wonder because he's so young, then Cameron is a girl wonder because she once said that she's the youngest member of the team.

My point wasn't the age itself, but that shaving 5-10 years off his age led to changing his position from attending to fellow and that actually changed the character. So it's not JUST a matter of casting. They ammended the character to fit the casting. The discrepancy is between the characters too and I think that affect's Foreman's ego, thus his perception of Chase. Foreman has to let himself believe Chase was handed everything because it's easier to think he's pampered than it is to accept that he might actually be just as intelligent and driven as Foreman is.

Foreman has to let himself believe Chase was handed everything because it's easier to think he's pampered than it is to accept that he might actually be just as intelligent and driven as Foreman is. Intelligent yes, driven no. To get back on topic, what drives Foreman? Does he want to be the best, does he want to appear to be the best (a prestige thing), does he want to be a good doctor, does he want to be a *successful* doctor? We know that Foreman wants to head his own department. In 'DNR' he turned down a lucrative partnership to continue to learn from House. At the end of S3 he decided that he'd rather kill less patients than save more lives, ie be like House. From that I'd say that whatever Foreman started out wanting, by the end of S3 he wanted to be a *good* doctor - by which I mean providing his patients with the best care, and that means more to him than being "right".

I think Foreman is confused and conflicted right now. He's having trouble recognizing and admitting to himself and others who/what he really is and reconciling his partial knowledge of himself (the House-like stuff he doesn't want to be true) with who he thinks he wants/should want to be as a doctor and a human being. He still wants the things he wanted before--to be the famous and respected top dog of his own particular hill--but he's caught up--finally! and even if he doesn't quite realize it yet--in the true costs and sacrifices he is going to have to make to get there. He's at a big turning point in terms of what kind of doctor he wants to be and also what kind of doctor he can be given who he is and the realities of the world and as of the end of season three he is still in a great deal of denial--about who he is, what he wants and if those two things can actually exist together. House's philosphy is that in order to be good at what he does, he has to be a heartless bastard and Foreman is refusing to accept that and is still trying to believe he can be as good as House without losing the human/humane element. I think.... :wink: Since this is the Houseverse, I don't think Foreman has much of a chance and he has been such a dick for such a long time, I'm not too fussed about this on his account.

but at one point House told Chase that Foreman was smarter than him. IMO that had more to do with House pissing on Chase than there being any truth to it re Foreman. At the end of S3 he decided that he'd rather kill less patients than save more lives, ie be like House. From that I'd say that whatever Foreman started out wanting, by the end of S3 he wanted to be a *good* doctor - by which I mean providing his patients with the best care, and that means more to him than being "right". I think there's some truth to that re Foreman; however, IMO he's not on the right track in terms of how to accomplish it. Running away from House seems somewhat similar to running away to some degree from his mother & his family situation. Its the easy route, as opposed to taking the good of House's methods but not "becoming like him". My sense is that the running away is as much about running away from the more unpleasant aspects of his own personality that he doesn't want to admit. And though he might want to provide the best care, there's a difference there to actually providing it. And I'm not convinced that Foreman is able to, despite his book smarts in the 4.0 GPA or his outward slick image. He's like an amalgum of the worst parts of Marty & House's personalities, without the core ability to be a good doctor.