5.21 - Saviors

ETA: In Saviors, she didn't have to lie to him (and tell him she was lying.) All she had to do was say that there had been a lot of emotional turmoil as a result of Kutner's suicide that what she'd like would be to go on their 3 day weekend and just relax -- not make any plans, not analyze their relationship, not talk about what they're going to do once they return to work after the vacation. He's not stupid. He would have waited for a better time to propose. She didn't lie. She said there were reasons she was delaying but she couldn't tell him what they were. She wanted more time and he ran out of patience. She couldn't have told him not to propose because it's something that's impossible to put back into the bag after it's been brought into the light. It would be the elephant in the room and ruin the whole vacation for them. They still have big communication issues, both of them. And possibly Chase still has trust issues. Will we ever see it? Only if the show is willing to actually spend some time on them rather than having us see it in Morse code. I don't think Chase ever said or suggested that he knew what was right for Cameron. He said and acted on what was right for him. When Cameron decided that what he wanted was also right for her, she agreed. And everything that Chase wanted ended up being right for her when she thought about it. He may not have said so but the writers make it so that he is always right about what's best for her and she is always wrong. For 8 episodes I've waited for them to bring Chase and Cameron back as doctors (actually 15 in Chase's case) and what I get is a soap opera. *sigh*

I think Cameron could have handled the situation better if she was more initially up front about her fears. Obviously she didn't not want to become engaged to Chase, she just didn't want to start another marriage based on death, which is completely understandable. She didn't necessarily have to bring up the fact that she had discovered the ring, but she could have started a conversation with him in which she stated her experiences in focusing more on the immediacy of death than on the stability of a relationship. Where Cameron went wrong was in focusing completely on her own wants after Kutner's death, but then again, perhaps that's where Chase went wrong as well. He focused on wanting to propose to Cam, but seemed to not necessarily consider her past (then again, we got very little on what was going on his head during the episode, so maybe he did). In the end, they came to a mutual decision, and one that they felt was best for them. Good for them. For 8 episodes I've waited for them to bring Chase and Cameron back as doctors (actually 15 in Chase's case) and what I get is a soap opera. *sigh* Luckily for all of us, the show is not written to please any one particular fan.

It seems that Chase had been on the right track - Cameron was open to the idea of getting married, she just didn't think the week after someone died was a good time to make the decision. As Poeia notes, she could have kept him from proposing without making a mess of things, and he could have saved proposing for a better opportunity. Instead, the strategy she used backfired temporarily. They let us know Cameron was open to the idea of getting married several episodes ago when she said to Chase, "Save it for the wedding." Maybe if they had focused some on Chase and Cameron in the last two years we might know for sure that they've discussed "forever" with one another. The proposal scene really works for me, because there was something satisfying about the visual of Chase and Cameron finally having someone who wants to hug them back. The proposal scene wasn't over-idealized , and instead of whatever romantic setup Chase was hoping for they were in a locker room and Chase had half his shirt buttoned. But it was emotional, and solved the problem of what to say perfectly by having Chase say nothing at all. I loved the proposal for the same reasons as you. Marriage isn't about flowers and candy and candlelight. I love that they didn't have to have all that to get to the heart of the matter and that was that they love each other and want to spend their lives together. The other thing I love about the setting of the proposal is that it takes me back to "Not Stolen" flowers which gives the proposal quite a bit of competition for the most romantic moment ever on the show. I particularly liked Cameron's line of not expecting, but hoping. That ranks as my second favorite line of the episode (after, "I don't care how it looks. I care what it is"). It was a wonderful line where Cameron laid her soul out for Chase and the delivery was spot-on perfect. That scene was JMo's best acting on the show to date.

Slightly veering off topic...I found it interesting that it was Cuddy to tell Cameron that she and Chase were good together (okay, yes, because she was in a way staking her claim), when it was Cuddy way back when, who told her it would never work. Luckily for all of us, the show is not written to please any one particular fan. :applause: Or, lately, anyone. I'm not sure I follow (I'm guessing you were agreeing with Ariadne? Forgive me if I'm mistaken). So, because you aren't happy with the way the show is going, no one is? I'm enjoying it. As are many others. But, I guess we aren't anyone? I thought your comment sounded perfect for the bitterness thread. It was general and seemingly not based solely on this one episode.

MOD NOTE: Okay, people, STOP IT. Ariadne was speaking for herself, which is what we want you to do rather than making generalizations about fans. Get back on topic and stay away from discussions of the fans.

I think Cameron could have handled the situation better if she was more initially up front about her fears. Obviously she didn't not want to become engaged to Chase, she just didn't want to start another marriage based on death, which is completely understandable. She didn't necessarily have to bring up the fact that she had discovered the ring, but she could have started a conversation with him in which she stated her experiences in focusing more on the immediacy of death than on the stability of a relationship. Where Cameron went wrong was in focusing completely on her own wants after Kutner's death, but then again, perhaps that's where Chase went wrong as well. He focused on wanting to propose to Cam, but seemed to not necessarily consider her past (then again, we got very little on what was going on his head during the episode, so maybe he did). In the end, they came to a mutual decision, and one that they felt was best for them. Good for them. I'm going to have to agree with House on this one, in that Kutner's death was just a poor excuse she was using to mask her commitment issues. It's a little tiresome that she still has to have them, but at least it is canonical. As for Chase, I don't know that there's any reason to think his buying of a ring had anything to do with Kutner. Chase has been in this for the long haul for a very long time.

I'm going to have to agree with House on this one, in that Kutner's death was just a poor excuse she was using to mask her commitment issues. It's a little tiresome that she still has to have them, but at least it is canonical. As for Chase, I don't know that there's any reason to think his buying of a ring had anything to do with Kutner. Chase has been in this for the long haul for a very long time. I do agree about Chase. I don't think he was at all thinking about Kutner except when he scheduled the trip. Should it have occurred to him? Possibly, but really blaming him for not considering what issues Cameron might have with a distant colleague's death would be like honestly trying to blame Cuddy for not immediately considering that Kutner's death would have so much effect on Wilson that he couldn't immediately deal with House (but that could be further discussion for other threads). It was a poor excuse, but an excuse that she should have been talking about sooner. It would have saved them both heartbreak (but then, that's how the narrative of the show works; who am I to complain?).

I just think that she did have other reasons to stick with the case other than her issues with Chase. I didn't really know if Cameron wanted to get married at all, so I was a little surprised when she admitted to Chase that she did. It seemed more like a timing issue for her this time, rather than a committment issue. She was worried that Chase was doing something dramatic because of all of the upheaval at work. She may very well have been wrong about that, but I don't think she was intentionally wrong. Chase was focusing on what he wanted as well. I think that Chase wanted to put some space bettween himself and the whole situation, while Cameron wanted to work through it. Neither of them were really fundamentally wrong.

Proposing a week after Kutner's death is rather like "funeral baked meats". Even if he had the trip previously planned, he should have anticipated that Kutner's death would bring up all sorts of issues for Cameron about her dead husband, especially since she had already told him back in The Itch that it played into her relationship concerns with him. Of maybe she just didn't feel up to going on a surfing vacation right now. Chase could have brought it up himself and asked her if she wanted to talk about how Kutner's death was affecting them rather than assuming that her reluctance was about feelings for House. Neither of them is perfect. Or rather, both of them were badly written in the service of the plot. Chase is usually the most sensitive of the characters on the show to that sort of implication. Also, Chase could easily have put off the vacation since Cameron was affected by Kutner's death. And as long as they're stealing from the personal lives of JS and JM, Chase could have put off proposing on the vacation. Jesse did twice, because of weather and then illness, and finally proposed on their third vacation. but really blaming him for not considering what issues Cameron might have with a distant colleague's death would be like honestly trying to blame Cuddy for not immediately considering that Kutner's death would have so much effect on Wilson that he couldn't immediately deal with House Cuddy isn't in a relationship with Wilson and wanting to propose to him, Cuddy cares about House. When you're in love with someone, there's a greater amount of empathy involved, or there should be. We may be over-analyzing it or maybe Chase's trust issues/jealousy around House that came up in NMMNG aren't completely gone. I found it interesting that it was Cuddy to tell Cameron that she and Chase were good together (okay, yes, because she was in a way staking her claim), when it was Cuddy way back when, who told her it would never work. In season 3, she was acting as the head of the hospital and trying to avoid staff problems before they arose. In Saviors, she was trying to make sure Cameron wasn't a threat to her personal relationship with House. Both times, she was maximizing her own self-interest.

House has never cared enough about the ducklings to move from his habitual mocking of their idiocy into actual anger so I don't get what House's feelings are there. Not paternal at any rate. I think it is canon that House cares about Cameron to a certain extent. Fidelity, No Reason, Informed Consent are all canon. He had shown himself to be actually angry at Cameron in Informed Consent. I disagree with the idea that House only shows his true emotions to Wilson, I think we have seen him open up to Cameron as well; Daddy's Boy was a good example of that. It is true that we've never seen similar scenes with Chase and Foreman in them. There has been a somewhat angry, dissmissive edge to the H/C interaction in the past two episodes and I don't really understand why. I assume it probably has something to do with the anti-H/C undertone that the show, as a whole, has moved into since mid-Season 3. I think the main problem with that is that they haven't really explained why, so I almost have to view it a breakdown in the narrative. Vitawash, Poiea: I do agree with your posts, it was never my intention to imply that Cameron was totally in the right. It is true that Chase is usually the one that moves the action along. I guess I just don't see Cameron as coming from a place of selfishness or taking Chase for granted. She apologized to Chase in AYA, She apologized in the Itch, and she apologized and tried to make things right in this episode. I just never see a good guy or a bad guy in these types of situations. I honestly think she didn't know how to deal with a situation that made her uncomfortable. Could she have handled it better? Yes, but I think she shut down out of fear not because she just didn't want to deal with him.

There has been a somewhat angry, dissmissive edge to the H/C interaction in the past two episodes and I don't really understand why. I assume it probably has something to do with the anti-H/C undertone that the show, as a whole, has moved into since mid-Season 3. I think the main problem with that is that they haven't really explained why, so I almost have to view it a breakdown in the narrative. A decision by the show runners to explore other interactions between characters is not "anti" any ship -- including House/Cameron -- anymore than the introduction of Amber as Wilson's girlfriend was "anti" House/Wilson. Canon is not shipping. (The show runners may be aware of the various ships out there, but they have no requirement to respond to any of them. Shipping is a fan/fandom response, which is why there are ships that are not, and never will be, canon -- such as House/Foreman or Thirteen/Cameron -- and yes, those ships exist.) For myself, a non-shipper of anyone with anyone, I've enjoyed seeing Cameron's progression over the years from the woman still locked in the mourning of her dead husband in "Fidelity," to exploring new relationship potential -- first the dead-end one with House, then slowly with Chase from the point she doesn't want to become emotionally attached (because she's still hurting from her husband's death) to recognizing that becoming emotionally attached can be a good thing, to taking her relationship with Chase to the next level by giving him a drawer to now when she stops finding excuses and embraces a future with someone new. That's been a great character arc for me, and while Cameron is still not a favorite character for me, it's nice to look at where she was and how she's grown, and I'm glad that the powers that be took her on that path.

A decision by the show runners to explore other interactions between characters is not "anti" any ship -- including House/Cameron -- anymore than the introduction of Amber as Wilson's girlfriend was "anti" House/Wilson. Canon is not shipping. (The show runners may be aware of the various ships out there, but they have no requirement to respond to any of them. Shipping is a fan/fandom response, which is why there are ships that are not, and never will be, canon -- such as House/Foreman or Thirteen/Cameron -- and yes, those ships exist.) I wasn't implying that the PTP 'had' to do anything, I was saying that the interactions in Saviors and the previous episode didn't make sense canonically with what we've seen of H/C's interactions in the past. If House started treating Wilson dismissively and showing no affection for him, I would feel the same way. If you look at their interactions in Locked In or their first interaction in the Meat Loaf episode, House seemed like a totally different person in those verses how he acted toward Cameron in Saviors and the latter parts of the Meat Loaf episode. The House/Cameron interactions and attraction are canon from the first 3 seasons, possibly even the first 4. For myself, a non-shipper of anyone with anyone, I've enjoyed seeing Cameron's progression over the years...That's been a great character arc for me, and while Cameron is still not a favorite character for me, it's nice to look at where she was and how she's grown, and I'm glad that the powers that be took her on that path. I don't ship people either, but what happened bettween H/C is part of the narrative. I agree with your analysis of the Cameron storyline.

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