5.01 - Dying Changes Everything

(as when she blamed him for the PCR that Wilson had done)Well, how was she to know otherwise when it was House who handed her the results and didn't correct her assumption? Uh, I had my own trouble with this kind of thing earlier but that quote is Bedawyn's not mine. If we think our choice is right, we do it anyway. Adults just as often go to great lengths to avoid making the people they love angry with them even when they think their right. Sometimes that's being an adult too. To try and find away of accompishing something without hurting anyone. The only thing that mattered was she had something she wanted House to do and they had just handed her something to hold over House's head to get him to do it. Which Wilson could not have known so even if he did pick Cuddy he couldn't have predicted what she would say. The other is her tendency to assume that House is always in the wrong (as when she blamed him for the PCR that Wilson had done) She asked what Amber's proposal was, took a moment to confirm that it wasn't insane, and then didn't even bother asking what House's proposal was. It was House's, so therefore it must be insane. I don't think she was really siding with Amber so much as siding against House Just as often, more so, even when she thinks House is wrong and/or wants something insane she gives in so there would still be no way to predict the outcome as away to pull from House. I don't see how anyone but Wilson can take the credit for Wilson's choice to spend less time with House before the custody deal, especially since Amber seems surprised at the idea that she controls Wilson's schedule. We're running in circles but again Amber likley had little to no knowledge of how contentious the amount of time Wilson spent with House was in his previous relationships, especially since Wilson told her he did whatever the wives wanted. That clearly wasn't true when it came to how often he was with House. By the time of the honeymoon. We don't know how much she knew when they first started dating. The HT conversation sounded to me like she was aware House existed when they started dating but House wasn't around that much until after she was "hooked" (since he wasn't "paying attention"). Whereas we know that Amber had an actual relationship with House prior to dating Wilson and knew they were close. We can't be sure but there was no indication that W/B had a long courtship before marriage so just because House wasn't paying attention to their dating doesn't mean that Bonnie wasn't aware of how often House need Wilson and Wilson went to him before they married. I wouldn't call the audtion Amber having a relationship with House, she was one of a large group of people that he had scrambling around the hospital. Saying House and Wilson are close is a gross understatement and hardly covers it. the group of newbies who apparently got a copy of the Insider's Guide to House...and in particular the newbie who knew to play up Cameron and Chase in 97S and how to go about it. And she had plenty of time to watch House and Wilson in action before she was fired. I can't believe that she wouldn't have paid close attention in hopes of finding an angle that would help her get hired. No, of course she couldn't have understood the true depth and intensity of their relationship... but she understood it was deep and intense. She understood enough that she was only slightly upset and slightly surprised when House showed up in her apartment. I disagree with the Insider Guide to House, you don't need inside info to know that C/C were House's two previous fellows so a good source of info about working for House but I doubt they shared info on what happened to House/Wilson during Volger, Stacy, Tritter and the like, never mind all the time before C/C were on the scene. Amber tried to manipulate everyone she came in contact with but interestingly the one person she never went to was Wilson. We saw no indication that she ever saw House and Wilson in action. The most she knew is that House didn't want Wilson to be the one to find him. If she had really been aware why didn't she use that angle by going to Wilson about two seconds after she saved House in 97S. Maybe she wasn't so clever after all. Or she just didn't know the depth of H/W's real connection. If Amber's response to House all through NMMNG was only slightly upset and surprised I'd hate to think what she would have done if she had really been pissed off. She practically needed to be put in a straight jacket. YMMV Still to say that Wilson was trying to pull away from House the way he now has was indicated by his behaviour back then I think is projection plain and simple. He was trying to add to his life not subtract. Again YMMV.

Chippers wrote: When it comes to how she(Cuddy) related to Wilson in this episode, what did you (or anyone) actually want her to do? I only can talk about what I would like to see her to do: to talk to Wilson. Like Cam and Foreman did. It might have occurred off screen, but there's no mention of that, so I'd assume that she never talked to him about why he wanted to leave and what he'd accomplish with his resignation. That's why she was out of the mark with Wilson - Cam and Foreman also didn't see the whole picture, but at least they seemed concerned about him and what it'd be the best for him. They acted as friends to him. The show is about House and everything will end up connected with him, but for someone who is supposed to understand H/W so well - as I see so many think - Cuddy often misses a lot about one of those parts. At the end what I think she understands so well is how easier her life is if there's someone there who can control House. That's the reason she brought Foreman back to the team and that's the main reason she wanted to keep Wilson there - if she thought that House was really unmoved by Wilson's departure, she wouldn't have done all that much (IMO).

Chipper, there was plenty she could have done. She could have been on Wilson's side. I took ixtab's comment to mean that Cuddy always takes House's side. She may fight with him about medical decisions but, when it comes to interpersonal relationships, she always protects him. It still would have been about House. He needs to acknowledge that he set the events in motion that resulting in Amber's death. He needs to be a better friend to Wilson. He needs to open up for once and show Wilson that he cares. He needs to... Taking Wilson's side and saying that House has to be the one to give for once would still have been all about House.

I don't know about anyone else, but Cuddy really irritates me these days because I find her as inconsistent as Cameron used to be - she's a two-dimensional plot device. One episode, she doesn't give a shit about Wilson, and then she's friends with him in another. She tells him to dump the Bitch (but not House, of course, who is a lot worse than Amber when it comes to compulsively looking out for himself), whom she never liked - oh, and House asked her to. Then she's handing out hugs and advice when Amber dies - which is understandable, but Cameron would have made a lot more sense there. Now Cuddy is using Amber to persuade Wilson not to leave. WTF. I totally support Wilson's outbursts during the couple's counseling, because that's incredibly insulting. What would I have preferred Cuddy do? If she wants it to be all about House, fine. But she shouldn't pretend she's Wilson's friend, or invoke Amber's name in an attempt to emotionally manipulate him. Or, talk to them individually, be supportive, and just accept she can't (and has no right to) control the situation. Or lock just the two of them in the janitor's closet :P

I only can talk about what I would like to see her to do: to talk to Wilson. Like Cam and Foreman did. It might have occurred off screen, but there's no mention of that, so I'd assume that she never talked to him about why he wanted to leave and what he'd accomplish with his resignation. That's why she was out of the mark with Wilson - Cam and Foreman also didn't see the whole picture, but at least they seemed concerned about him and what it'd be the best for him. They acted as friends to him. Okay, but maybe she realized that nothing she could say would change his mind. The reason that Cameron's talk with Wilson was beautiful was because they both understood the grief that comes from losing a significant other. Cuddy doesn't know that, but she does get how much House and Wilson mean to each other. Yes, she was off the mark because she thought that Wilson was in some way blaming House, but she knew deep down that this was about House and needing to get away from him. And therefore, the only one who could potentially change Wilson's mind was House. Hence the couples counseling. I don't think Cuddy did know deep down that Wilson needed to get away from House. She says after CC fails that she doesn't know why Wilson is leaving and neither does House and that would usually set him off to dig deeper, that was why Cuddy set up counseling because House said that Wilson threw him out twice before and she wanted there to be an oppportunity for them to be in the same room where they couldn't get away so easily to get at the core of the reason Wilson decided to go. Only once Wilson was walking out of CC did she make a desperate try at finding out why he was going but he wouldn't have it. But she herself, on her own, never tried to do that. Maybe because she does know she has no real weight with Wilson. She's never been there before for him in a crisis (with the exception of Amber's final hours) still always more concerned with the effects on House. How could she go now and pretend that it's what Wilson is doing to himself that concerns her. You see what Wilson thought of her being on his side in CC and her reaction, no one was fooling anyone there. Foreman took the opportunity to encourage Wilson to do for himself not worry what House and Cuddy wanted from him and I thought that was wonderful of him. He was also feeling the ill-effects of House's lack of Wilson and likely with much more of that to come but he didn't let that get in the way of supporting Wilson's choice. He was also the first that we saw ask Wilson if they could do anything for him. Bravo! I think one thing Cuddy was looking for was for House to admit to someone that he did feel bad and guilt over what happen to Amber, even though he was not to blame. It would be normal to feel that anyway and she wanted him to get that out if not to her then to Wilson so her insistence that he tell Wilson how he felt about that was also really more for House than for Wilson. If it also wound up making Wilson feel better bonus points. She couldn't really know what Wilson needed to hear from House because she never spoke to Wilson about it. :? I'll give her credit for telling House that he was afraid to know the real reason Wilson was leaving and that he was running too. That was right. I also think she was somewhat right about Wilson needing to hear what House feels about Wilson and that he is not alone but not about Amber's death as much as the disintergration of their own relationship and everything that as led them to where they are now.

how was she to know otherwise when it was House who handed her the results I would agree with that if he hadn't started the conversation with "You don't have cancer" and she hadn't just had dinner with an oncologist she knows is tricksy. Under the circumstances, I think she should have at least suspected Wilson's involvement. But maybe she was just considering them as one incorrigible unit and her "you" to House was meant to be plural. :-) Which Wilson could not have known so even if he did pick Cuddy he couldn't have predicted what she would say. *shrug* Wilson knows her better than I do, so if I'm right in my interpretation I think he could have predicted it. There's always something she wants House to do that he'd be trying to weasel out of otherwise. We can't be sure but there was no indication that W/B had a long courtship Which is why I said "presumably" when I suggested Amber was different this way. There's no hard evidence either way. I wouldn't call the audtion Amber having a relationship with House, she was one of a large group of people that he had scrambling around the hospital. I suspect saving someone's life kind of makes you stand out from the crowd, especially a "large group" of four. the Insider Guide to House This was referring to something folks discussed last year, when all the newbies seemed to have more knowledge right off the bat then they reasonably should have. I haven't seen the early eps recently enough to rehash it and aren't really interested in doing so anyway. Re: Cuddy and Wilson, I find it really hard to believe that they didn't have some sort of off-screen "Why do you want to do this? You shouldn't do this!" conversation as soon she got his resignation. All issues of friendship aside, you'd think that conversation would be necessary whenever a department head resigns on short notice, even if someone else was filling in while he was on leave. I really wish we'd gotten to see that conversation -- what Wilson did or did not tell her then would probably make a huge difference in how we interpret her actions later.

Re: Cuddy and Wilson, I find it really hard to believe that they didn't have some sort of off-screen "Why do you want to do this? You shouldn't do this!" conversation as soon she got his resignation. All issues of friendship aside, you'd think that conversation would be necessary whenever a department head resigns on short notice, even if someone else was filling in while he was on leave. I really wish we'd gotten to see that conversation -- what Wilson did or did not tell her then would probably make a huge difference in how we interpret her actions later. I would suspect that this is true, and it probably (at least on Cuddy's side) looked like the conversation she had with Foreman in Resignation -- "Are you sure?" And then she set about making House talk to him.

I don't think Cuddy did know deep down that Wilson needed to get away from House. She says after CC fails that she doesn't know why Wilson is leaving and neither does House and that would usually set him off to dig deeper, that was why Cuddy set up counseling because House said that Wilson threw him out twice before and she wanted there to be an oppportunity for them to be in the same room where they couldn't get away so easily to get at the core of the reason Wilson decided to go. Only once Wilson was walking out of CC did she make a desperate try at finding out why he was going but he wouldn't have it. But she herself, on her own, never tried to do that. Maybe because she does know she has no real weight with Wilson. She's never been there before for him in a crisis (with the exception of Amber's final hours) still always more concerned with the effects on House. How could she go now and pretend that it's what Wilson is doing to himself that concerns her. You see what Wilson thought of her being on his side in CC and her reaction, no one was fooling anyone there. Okay, take pity on someone who doesn't text and isn't accustomed to abbreviating everything. I started with Cuddy/Cameron, then Cuddy/Chase, Cameron/Chase, Closed Captioning and finally wracked my brain for an episode with those initials before I came up with Couples Counseling. I know it's technically not chatspeak, but the effect is the same. It would have been ideal if Cuddy had given Wilson time to reconsider. I know he's been gone for 2 months and has probably used up all his vacation/sick/bereavement time in the process. But a 6-month sabbatical, during which time he could work on some articles, lecture, volunteer, look for a new job, etc. before accepting his resignation would let him work out what he really wants to do.

Sorry Poeia I just don't always have the patience to type out Couple's Counseling especially in a long winded post :oops: where it appeared several times and when I hardly abbreviated anything else. In the context of the discussion with no slash included I thought the meaning would be easily understood. Closed Captioning? really? :) If Cuddy had an off-screen talk with Wilson don't you think we would have heard anything she might have gleaned from it to help get him to stay or the fact that she couldn't get anything out of him but tried. Sorry that seems to be nothing more than wishful thinking because it is something you would think she should have done but clearly she did not do.

Taking my answer to Board Meeting Agenda to keep this thread on topic.

I thought Cuddy struck a good balance both in Wilson's Heart and Dying Changes Everything in caring for both men. She was very much there for Wilson during Wilson's Heart, in the capacity she could be--hugging him, counselling about waking Amber, while still trying to keep him acting as family rather than physician, which she wasn't wrong about. She clearly cared very much about what he going through and Wilson allowed himself to cry with her. She also cared what House was going through and one doesn't cancel out the other. I think this episode she wanted these two men to patch up their relationship, to the extent that she didn't want House to take the case and was willing to give it to another doctor. We saw more of her talking to House, but then she thought she had a handle on what Wilson was feeling and that the most productive thing she could do is push, nag and cajole House into opening up to Wilson. The couples counselling was not all about House, it was to get the two of them talking. She tried not to let either one of them subvert the purpose, but she didn't have a good enough read on Wilson to be successful. And I don't think that was lack of interest or care, anymore than Cameron and Foreman not picking up on Wilson's actual state of mind meant that. Wilson was hiding how he felt and allowing people to assume things because he didn't want to talk about it, and he's no pushover. I completely disagree that Cuddy's job was to make House admit he caused Amber's death. He didn't. I think Cuddy was much more spot on in trying to get House to admit that even though he didn't cause her death, he does still feel a survivor's guilt and he certainly feels badly that she died. She was also accurate in noting that House was holding back because he was afraid that even if he did, it wouldn't be enough and Wilson would leave anyway. I don't think it reflects on her caring about Wilson that she wasn't as accurate on what he was feeling. Wilson is well established as the hardest character on the show to get a read on. Even House never quite knows where he is with Wilson.

Chipmunk_love Yes, I know the show is called House and everything revolves around him. But it worries me the way Cuddy has been reduced in the last two season to nothing more than House's satellite. Once upon a time, she was someone who I could believe was running a Major Hospital responsibly, now, most of time I wonder when she's going to run out of "blackmail" material and have the board finally fire her. It's dissapointing that she has become "all-about-House", in general. In this particular ep, I think Lully, Poeia, Filex, Nekocat had clearly expressed my misgivings about how she handled the situation. About getting on a soapbox (I had to look for the expression in my Idioms book, ':)' ), I do it too when Wilson (and paperwork) are involved. Wilson's office: I thought it look bigger because the table and the chairs were not there...

I wouldn't call the audtion Amber having a relationship with House, she was one of a large group of people that he had scrambling around the hospital. I suspect saving someone's life kind of makes you stand out from the crowd, especially a "large group" of four. She stood out for one reason, she was the one who most desperately wanted the job, that's was the reason House gave for paging her. If saving his life counted to House for anything when he was down to the "final four" he might have fought more for her to be the woman Cuddy made him hire. That particular plea might have worked on Cuddy. Regardless saving him doesn't mean they had a relationship that gave her any real or in-depth knowledge about House or House & Wilson.

Well said, jair. I think it's exactly right that Cuddy, like House, thought Wilson's issues were all about blaming him for Amber's death, which in fact he didn't. I think Wilson knew they all thought that and didn't want to speak up about his real feelings to anyone, so Cuddy went with what she thought was pretty clear: getting the blame issue out in the open and then getting them to talk about it and move on. But since that wasn't the real issue, it couldn't have worked and she couldn't have known why it didn't work. (She still may not know, since she wasn't there for that last conversation, so she may continue to be at cross-purposes regarding Wilson's leaving). That Wilson only opened up about his real feelings when House had completely let his guard down and was completely vulnerable and had even offered to help, to be the friend that Wilson has said he needed, that that was when Wilson said not only that they were no longer friends, but that they had never been friends: that didn't come out of a spntaneous desire to hurt House, but a well-considered decision to end whatever hope there might be that they would ever be friends again. (Now I know things are expected to change, and I hope they do, but at the end of S5E1, that's sure how it looked to me.)

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