4.16 Wilson's Heart

I think an equally interesting question to yours about what if Amber had lived would be: what if House had died? *Lag looks vaguely around, whistling softly to herself and sidles towards the exit...* :wink: Question? Ah... what question? I had to think about his one for a while, but although I would be very ANGRY at Wilson for asking this of House, I *still* do not think I would feel it was indicative of his loving Amber more than House. It was a reckless request, and I have never said otherwise. And it was a risk. If House had died, I would be angry at Wilson for asking. I would be angry at House for agreeing and for upping the voltage. I would be angry at Chase for not blowing the whistle, but I would *still* understand WHY Wilson made the choice, and I would not take it as an indication that he was choosing to kill House in order to save Amber. He was throwing the dice and hoping for a Lucky Seven. If both House and Amber died, it would have been Snake Eyes, and Wilson would have had to deal with the responsibility he had in House's death - just as he is going to have to deal with the fact House *was* injured due in part to his request - just as House is going to have to deal with the fact that his actions set off a chain of events that lead to Amber's death. Neither one was making a deliberate choice to kill anyone, but their "tosses of the dice" both ended in tragedy. BTW, I am not sure you answered *my* question. :P What if the DBS had lead to the discovery of the flu pills and there HAD been a treatment?

I have nothing to add on the Wilson’s Choice debate to what I and others have already posted in this. I'd just be rewording the same ideas. It won’t make others see things as we do and while I respect others and some of their ideas I'm not going to come to share them either. So we’ll see in 12 weeks what the story and the characters tell us. I will pick up what I think are two new points. House did not agree to DBS due to survivor's guilt. At that point Amber was still alive and House did not know what if any part he played in her being on the bus. That he learned after the DBS. If he was confident in having the right diagnosis then his self loathing should also have been at bay because it is his medical expertise that has always assuaged his bad feelings about himself. He was reacting in part to Wilson’s pain and desire to do everything possible to save Amber (something House wanted too) and to the fact that any other information about her and himself and the whole night was only going to be accessed thru the DBS and House wanted that too which is why he suggested it in the first place. If the DBS had caused House's death I would still have understood why Wilson asked House to do it, why House agreed to it and why Chase and Cuddy let it go forward. There is always risk but you base your choice on what has the least risk and that is what you go with and at this time House having DBS had the least, while still very great, risk rather than doing nothing more for Amber. It could have turned out tragically, and they all knew that which makes it that much more difficult, but it still would have been the right choice under the circumstances. Or Word completely to what Lagniappe said! And to reply to jair re. House. But I don't think you can say that House is definitely not responsible for Amber's death, but he should take responsibility anyway. In terms of responsibility for Amber's death, his actions are not relevant I never said he should take responsibility for her death that does not mean his actions are not relevant to what happen they most definitely are relevant. They were a contributing factor. So were Amber's actions and the bus driver's and the garbage truck driver's maybe even Wilson but we're focusing on House now. it turned out all he'd done was call Wilson for ride. That's a random universe, not logical consequences to being drunk. Wilson got good and drunk himself a couple of eps ago. If he'd called Amber for a ride and she'd gotten into an accident, would Wilson be responsible? When Wilson got drunk he already had a ride with him, he was being responsible. If Wilson had called someone for a ride and on the way they had gotten into an accident while he would not have been the cause of, responsible for, the accident his actions would have been part of what led them to be in the accident along with all the other events that led to it. Actions are taken for a reason how different actions come together and impact on each other is what is random. We can never know what the impact is of our individual action until after something has happened, then we can see our part in it and if anything could have been changed to alter the outcome. He may feel so, but the rational people around him would hopefully be helping him not take that responsibility. House doesn't need people feeding his irrational thinking, either. He has good reason to think about his lifestyle, but he didn't cause Amber's death. His lifestyle is part of what led to Amber being somewhere that ultimately along with a number of other events came together and led to her death but no he was not the sole cause of it or directly responsible for her death occurring. If his lifestyle/actions have no relation to what happened to Amber then why should he think about it at all? He should just go on as he always has and say, "who told her to take those pills, who told her to come and get me, who told her to follow me on to the bus, who told the bus driver to go slower or faster, it was the garbage truck guy, etc..." Accidents are events that happen without planning or do not occur on purpose but that doesn’t mean they have no cause. In Amber’s death there are many causes and a change of anyone of them might have lead to a different outcome. But House’s actions are among those causes that lead Amber on to the bus. If he hadn’t gotten so drunk he couldn’t drive. If he had called a cab or taken a bus on his own. If when he reached Amber he had just hung up. If when Amber did arrive he accepted the ride and went home. If hadn’t walk out on her without his cane. If he hadn’t gotten on the bus. He played a part in something happening which he could not foresee the results of but if he had done something different the results probably would have changed. If House doesn’t use this event to examine his actions to see how he can better things for himself and others then I don’t know what this is all about. I doubt highly it is just to lets us know about the randomness of the universe. Or to have the others help poor House think rationally so he can see that he was in no way involved in what happened. Last example: I knock a vase off a table and it smashes to the floor and breaks into pieces it’s an accident. I didn’t purposefully pick it up and smash it but the vase is still broken. What was my part in the breaking of the vase? Was I not paying attention to what I was doing, Was I moving too fast thru the room, did I not realizing how close I was to the vase, did I put it too close to the edge of the table earlier, maybe someone else moved it, etc... I didn’t mean to break the vase but my actions are part of the cause of it’s being broken. In incidents like that someone will invariably say be more careful next time. Right be more careful next time House. For everyone’s sake. I always thought the fact Wilson had no friends other than House to be very fascinating. Moreso than the Amber arc, I think Wilson getting another friend (specifically, a male one who won't jump him) would be a very interesting thing to explore in regards to his relationship with House. If he had a couple of friends, he won't have to feel like he's constantly grasping for another connection, and maybe he won't rush into romances so quickly. A fresh topic of conversation! Not really related to W's H but so what. :lol: ITA I actually thought we might be going there before Amber came back. House had been so reticent to spend time with Wilson away from work that Wilson definitely needed another friend. So now that Amber is gone any good possibilities? Besides of course my first choice, House eventually being a better, more complete friend to Wilson. Cuddy isn't really a good fit because it's more professional and also more to do with the connection they have thru House. I think that's true even now, during W’s H she dealt with him more in her capacity as a doctor dealing with a family member than as a friend but she was there for him. At the start of S5 they may be closer or dependng on how H/W are going they may be strained for awhile if Cuddy is House's new catretaker. It has possibilites but not great ones. No one else currently on the cast seems to fit, Taub to middle class and maybe too old (funnily ROF would be perfect because I see him as wise and mature not old), Kutner too young, Foreman they really don’t get along, Chase never been much interaction between them until H’s H and W’S H still it’s all professional. Cameron and he have also been at odds in the past and the connection again is really House based although that has changed a bit for both of them. But she has Chase so third wheel time, no good. 13 is the most interesting idea, she also could use a friend and curiously she falls into Wilson pattern of a woman who is in a bad place and bonus points she may develop a fatal disease in the next 10 – 15 years! Considering her bisexuality it would be funny if they did not become lovers but stayed friends and were a support system for each other. Of course also giving House something with which to be preoccupied and get crazy while perhaps ultimately proving that he can let Wilson have other connections without turning it into a reason to become selfish and self-destructive.

To me, putting some of the blame on House because he got drunk and called for a ride is a lot colder. Yes, House asks a lot of Wilson, but calling for a sober ride from someone you love and need to talk to at that moment is pretty reasonable. Yeah, this is the thing people are saying that I just really don't get. Isn't calling for a ride when you're drunk and companionship when you're lonely exactly what friends are supposed to be for? Their friendship is so deep and loving that Wilson can ask him to risk his life for Amber's, but House is wrong to ask for a ride and some reassurance because it might be an inconvenience? It seems that people are saying House needs to be less of a burden to Wilson and other people, because of the way his self-destructiveness "drags" other people into his life. I can see House believing this after Amber's death, but I can't see it being a healthy way for him to react. If anything, he needs to learn to rely on and trust other people more, not less. This is the guy who apologized to Cate for getting personally involved with her case; he already thinks his only worth to other people is what he can do for them medically. Even if he tried to redefine himself to be more helpful and useful and socially acceptable in other ways, I don't see how that could be a good thing if he's simultaneously trying to hide and repress his own needs and feelings even more so that he doesn't inconvenience or burden anyone, doesn't let his existence mar their lives. What if there HAD been some treatment that could have saved Amber? Then, if they had not done the DBS, Amber would have died. Maybe, and maybe not. They would have figured out the RMSF diagnosis was wrong when the treatment didn't work, and we weren't given a timeline on how quickly Amber was dying. The PrinceGen doc seemed to think she was stable except for her heart, and the implication was that she could have been kept on bypass for quite a while. The "if we don't do the DBS, Amber's going to die" theory only works if we assume that the team were going to give her the treatment for the RMSF, see it fail, then shrug, go "oh well", and just twiddle their thumbs until she died. to the fact that any other information about her and himself and the whole night was only going to be accessed thru the DBS Or by going back to Sharrie's, throwing a few twenties on the bar, and letting the bartender know there were issues of amnesia and a dying woman on the table.

Sorry double post expanded for clarity below. :oops:

When Wilson got drunk he already had a ride with him, he was being responsible. If Wilson had called someone for a ride and on the way they had gotten into an accident while he would not have been the cause of, responsible for, the accident his actions would have been part of what led them to be in the accident along with all the other events that led to it. Wilson also isn't a Vicodin addict who shouldn't be drinking so much in the first place anyway.

It seems that people are saying House needs to be less of a burden to Wilson and other people, because of the way his self-destructiveness "drags" other people into his life. I can see House believing this after Amber's death, but I can't see it being a healthy way for him to react. If anything, he needs to learn to rely on and trust other people more, not less. This is the guy who apologized to Cate for getting personally involved with her case; he already thinks his only worth to other people is what he can do for them medically. Even if he tried to redefine himself to be more helpful and useful and socially acceptable in other ways, I don't see how that could be a good thing if he's simultaneously trying to hide and repress his own needs and feelings even more so that he doesn't inconvenience or burden anyone, doesn't let his existence mar their lives. I don't think folks are saying that House was wrong to call for a ride from Wilson when he was drunk. But maybe he could have thought about going to speak to Wilson about whatever was bothering him enough to down 7 scotchs in quick succession before he ran off and got drunk. House does need to rely more on people and less on drugs to deal with his pain and if he can do that in future he will make things easier for himself and everyone else around him. Wilson in particular has endlessly encouraged House to do this, to the point of begging, "do we need to talk", both for when he needs it and when House does. For which Wilson mostly gets mocked on the show and on the boards. But House sees talking about his or anyone's feelings and what is bothering him as some kind of weakness. It's admitting he does care, he is affected, he's afraid, alone, miserable, in pain, missing his friend and in the past he will just not do that. Where as popping pills or scotches to try to stifle those feelings is fine by him. That's what was wrong with what happened at the bar. Everything else followed after that... What if there HAD been some treatment that could have saved Amber? Then, if they had not done the DBS, Amber would have died. Maybe, and maybe not. They would have figured out the RMSF diagnosis was wrong when the treatment didn't work, and we weren't given a timeline on how quickly Amber was dying. The PrinceGen doc seemed to think she was stable except for her heart, and the implication was that she could have been kept on bypass for quite a while. The "if we don't do the DBS, Amber's going to die" theory only works if we assume that the team were going to give her the treatment for the RMSF, see it fail, then shrug, go "oh well", and just twiddle their thumbs until she died. But without the DBS and no new information exactly where were they going to go with the diagnosis. Was there something else that they hadn't already tried, tested for or considered. Her symptoms were not going to change they were just going to get worse, more toxin build up, and then kill her. They needed something else to happen, they needed to know more. Maybe, Maybe not is a pretty thin reed to hang someone's life on. Or by going back to Sharrie's, throwing a few twenties on the bar, and letting the bartender know there were issues of amnesia and a dying woman on the table. The bartender could not have told House about the pills. Only he saw that on the bus and that was the key to what was killing Amber. What happened at the bar just explained how and why they were together and they both came to be on the bus. Eventhat the bartender couldn't have helped with beacuse he didn't knowthe details of their conversation or that House called Wilson not her to meet him. That all came from the DBS.

The PrinceGen doc seemed to think she was stable except for her heart, and the implication was that she could have been kept on bypass for quite a while. Well, the Prince Gan doc was talking BEFORE her heart stopped in the ambulance, and I am pretty sure it was presented that, if they warmed her up and the diagnosis was wrong, they would have very little time to do anything else. Cuddy even says that "technically" she wasn't dead but that she would have a *few* hours while still ON by-pass...that didn't sound like "quite a while" to me. So when the treatment didn't work, they would have had very little time to figure anything out - and not having House's input about the flu drugs how likely is it they would have figured it out? Maybe if they had woken up Amber, SHE could have provided the information... but I defintely got the feeling time WAS very limited. Which brings up an interesting point: *If* they had warmed up Amber originally, like Foreman tried to do and woken her up, would SHE have provided the information so House would never have had to risk himself and Wilson would never have had to ask...Hmmmmm. Food for thought. I wonder if those questions will occur to Wilson. (However, since it tends not to support my stance, maybe I should just be quiet about it. :wink: )

But maybe he could have thought about going to speak to Wilson about whatever was bothering him enough to down 7 scotchs in quick succession before he ran off and got drunk. What could he possibly have said that wasn't already said in "Don't Ever Change"? And Wilson may claim he wants House to talk about his feelings, but he follows it up by criticizing him for being self-loathing, as if it were something that House was doing intentionally just to be annoying. That doesn't sound like someone who really wants to hear any more expressions of insecurity. Not to mention that repeatedly since at least season 2 Wilson has dismissed House's attempts to say what he's feeling (physically or emotionally), preferring to superimpose Wilson's own interpretations instead of actually listening. Add that we've recently established that both Wilson and House accept that anything House tells him is fair game for his rival's ears. Seriously, what do you think that conversation would have gone like if House had tried to talk to him? Assuming it went any farther than "I'm busy and it's not your night". without the DBS and no new information exactly where were they going to go with the diagnosis. Was there something else that they hadn't already tried, tested for or considered. <snip> They needed something else to happen, they needed to know more. Which is exactly what happens in every procedural ep. We have no reason to believe nothing else would have happened, that no one else would have reconsidered the sneezing they already knew about. There's no reason to think Amber's diagnosis would have been any more impossible than those of all the patients they've saved over the years despite, at some point in the process, having no idea where to look next. The diagnostic process is rocky, working in fits and starts, with zigzags back and forth -- but it almost always works in the end. Why should we assume that it wouldn't have worked this time?

So now Wilson doesn't deserved to be loved? Because he asked a selfish thing of House? By that logic House doesn't deserve to be loved because Wilson went through the ringer for him last year with Tritter, he was humiliated and he had no one on his side while doing it, and he wasn't even asked to, he was expected to. Wilson is not happy with his relationships, hasn't been for probably most his life. Oh, no. I didn't mean Wilson doesn't deserve to be loved, I just gave a bit clumsy explanation. Of course, he does, and personally I hoped he'd have a pretty good relationship with Amber (though I didn't believe his chances to achieve this were high) and that House will find a way to establish friendship with her at last, those two seemed to be so much alike and it would be an interesting plot line for me. I just don't think Wilson deserved House's love after he asked him to risk his life. Wilson made a choice. Yes, he showed House that House's life wasn't so important to him. He realised what he was doing. And I think he realised that from that moment he couldn't claim for House's love anymore. It would be OK if he just didn't asked such a thing to do. House would explore every possibility to save Amber even without this. Wilson must have known House would never rest until he did everything possible and impossible. Did I manage to explain my thought clearly? And I don't think also Wilson was such an irreplaceable friend for House. And honestly, I didn't see that Wilson was a huge help to House during all the Tritter arc. He was referring to House as he was a child, using drugs of protest only. (House wasn't white and fluffy, too, actually he was acting like a stubborn jerk, but at least he was in constant pain and Wilson wasn't) In the end he left House being in pain and puking - were those actions of a friend? It's only my opinion (and I'm completely good with other people having their own view), but it seemed to me that Wilson never tried to really understand House. I mean, not tryed to supervise him or to reeducate him, but just to understand. You really don't think Wilson was happy with Amber? I think that his relationship with Amber was different than his previous ones if for no other reason than she wasn't going to let him just take care of her and ignore himself. About Amber... I didn't see their relationship with Wilson lasting for a long time. Personally I think she's beautiful, but remembering Wilson's previous "loves of his live", I don't think they could have a long and stable relationship. Amber meant a lot to him not only because he was really involved in her (I believe he was), but also because House and Amber began a fight for his attention. It - I don't know if it's the right word - depraves somehow even a good and kind person. It's again only my own view of the whole thing ;)

So now that Amber is gone any good possibilities? I doubt it. I stand by my theory that Wilson is just going to be even more isolated, not reaching out to anyone, not even House for a while. I can see Cuddy attempting to be there for him in a vaguely friendly way, giving him time off and things like that, but I don't see Wilson wanting to form a deep connection again for a while. I can kind of see Cameron trying to reach out because she's (sort of) been there, but I don't see them becoming close because of it. They needed something else to happen, they needed to know more. I thought the fear was if they went ahead with the treatment and it was wrong, her immune system would be destroyed so if it turned out to be some other infection, she couldn't have fought it off anyway. And Wilson may claim he wants House to talk about his feelings, but he follows it up by criticizing him for being self-loathing, as if it were something that House was doing intentionally just to be annoying. Are you saying that it's Wilson's fault that House was at the bar? You think the only reason that House wouldn't talk to him is because Wilson's a jerk? And I don't think also Wilson was such an irreplaceable friend for House. And honestly, I didn't see that Wilson was a huge help to House during all the Tritter arc. He was referring to House as he was a child, using drugs of protest only. (House wasn't white and fluffy, too, actually he was acting like a stubborn jerk, but at least he was in contant pain and Wilson wasn't) In the end he left House being in pain and puking - were those actions of a friend? I could not disagree with you more. House has shown great panic and fear anytime it looks like Wilson is going to leave him. I don't think House sees Wilson as replacable, if he were he could have replaced him with Cuddy or even Chase at this point. During Tritter, House broke the law and was just expecting his best friend to cover for him no matter what and House wasn't going to help him out at all. Wouldn't you be mad? Are those the actions of a friend?

I just don't think Wilson deserved House's love after he asked him to risk his life. Wilson made a choice. Yes, he showed House that House's life wasn't so important to him. Wow.... I am glad that in MY personally philosophy of the world, love is not so...conditional. I doubt very many of us could live up to *those* types of standards.

Lagniappe, but we're discussing a TV series, not life itself :) :wink:

This has actually worked its way back around to something I forgot to say pages and pages and pages ago. People were talking about Wilson turning away from House because he was simply too overwhelmed to deal with House at that moment, and I get that. What makes it sad and bad and frustrating is that I don't think House needed to be "dealt with" at that moment. Wilson's simple presence would have been enough for him. It's part of that "love languages" thing again. Wilson tries to get House to talk about his feelings (although I've never gotten the impression he's really receptive) because that's the language Wilson speaks, what he needs for his own happiness and what he thinks House ought to need. But I've seen no evidence that it is what House needs, at least not to the extent that Wilson does. Wilson values the words, and House too often refuses to give them and trivializes Wilson's need for them. And House values the actions, and Wilson too often refuses to give them and trivializes House's need for them. The bartender could not have told House about the pills. Yes, but the bus was only a small fraction of the 4 hours, and people are claiming that House would have wanted to do the DBS regardless of its dubious diagnostic necessity because of his need to know about the missing time. The bartender certainly could have told him that Amber was only there for a few minutes after he took away House's keys and gave House the phone. Maybe if they had woken up Amber, SHE could have provided the information... Yes, thank you for pointing that out! She was perfectly lucid, and as soon as Wilson told her what had happened, she immediately knew what was wrong and came up with the flu pills on her own. If it had been treatable, they could have treated her right then. In other words -- the DBS was completely, absolutely unnecessary. If Wilson hadn't chosen to freeze her, they could have had the diagnosis hours previously, simply by letting her regain consciousness and asking her what her recent symptoms had been. Are you saying that it's Wilson's fault that House was at the bar? You think the only reason that House wouldn't talk to him is because Wilson's a jerk? Of course not. I'm saying it's disingenous to claim that House understood he had other effective ways of treating that emotional pain and chose alcohol instead just because he's a reckless self-destructive jerk.

House obfuscates the truth as readily as Wilson. He hides a lot of his emotional and physical pain behind a wall I'd find nearly implacable. I don't mind seeing Wilson critisize House for being self-destructive or self-loathing because everyone else's pain, emotions etc are fair gair for House. If your best friend isn't wiling to call you out on your bullshit then who is? I think Wilson can be a bit of nag, a bit conniving and a bit of push-over but somehow their friendship still works for me. I love seeing them tumble through these trying times. House fearing a life with Wilson's hatred showed me how much he still loves Wilson and needs him to be in his life, needs for things to be alright between them. I hope his subconscious via Amber is wrong ("you can't always get what you want") and hope the mending will be just as fascinating.

Yes, thank you for pointing that out! She was perfectly lucid, and as soon as Wilson told her what had happened, she immediately knew what was wrong and came up with the flu pills on her own. If it had been treatable, they could have treated her right then. In other words -- the DBS was completely, absolutely unnecessary. If Wilson hadn't chosen to freeze her, they could have had the diagnosis hours previously, simply by letting her regain consciousness and asking her. Actually, they couldn't have. Her heart was already damaged to the point that it wouldn't start beating again at the moment it stopped in the ambulance The same thing would have happened at Princeton General if they hadn't moved her. Defibrillation wouldn't have worked in the ambulance, or in the ER or wherever else they used it. The only thing they could have done was the bypass machine -- and they wouldn't have put her on that without cooling her first ... and if her heart wouldn't start after 20 minutes or however long of CPR or electrical shocks or anything else, it would have been clear that putting her on ice and attempting to start her heart later wouldn't have done any good either. The only reason that they put her on the bypass machine is because they thought her heart would restart. They thought there was something else causing the heart fluctuations, but in fact it was the damage to the heart itself. She would have been declared dead at PPTH shortly after she arrived there. They couldn't get her heart started even after they knew what had happened.

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