Perhaps I'm misremembering, but we'd already seen the flu rash on her lower back before the DBS.

I've actually thought this was a good way for them to handle the slash. Being a H/W shipper myself (but not one expecting it to ever happen) before all of this happened I was worried about it. I didn't see how this was all going to be able to stretch out I guess, because they seemed to really be addressing it in DEC. It seemed like they had nowhere to go with it because the subtext was...text (don't get me wrong, I loved DEC) so I was worried that they would just drop it for good. Now, however, I think even setting aside all the issues House and Wilson will have to go through in order to work through their respective grief and guilt, I don't think Wilson is going to be wanting a relationship for a very long time. I think Amber was a shot at happiness in a way that he hasn't had before and to have that chance ripped away from him so suddenly and tragically makes me think he'll be very closed off in terms of new relationships, YMMV. Since I don't see that was ever on the table (the situation was too complicated to view it that simply - for me) here, I don't see why it needs to be a first or second place thing. The way Wilson feels for the two of them isn't one more than the other, but one different. Same here. Nothing has convinced me that this is a contest on who Wilson loves the most, I just don't read it that way. The situation was not that cut-and-dry, IMHO. I don't think anyone can say for sure what Wilson would have asked if House and Amber's situations were reversed. I don't even know what I would have done in Wilson's shoes. But, I do know first hand that grief does make you desperate and irrational and I don't know why Wilson should be looked at as a bad friend or a disloyal friend for acting out of grief and desperation.

You guys realize you've been beating this issue to death for over 20 pages, right? If you're interested in my opinion Lagniappe said it best way back on pages 15 and 19, and LightMyCandle here: I didn't see Amber's relationship with Wilson "trumping" his relationship with House, what I saw was the severity of Amber's situation trumping the severity of House's. I also agree that part of House's motivation was fear that he may have done something in the bar or with Amber, that he was guilty of something. I found it curious that House did seem to think it was a possibility that House was doing recreational drugs and/or having sex with Amber in those four missing hours. He must think that's something he may do. If I lost four hours of my memory and someone asked me if I could have spent those four hours snorting cocaine between sex sessions with my best friend's hubby, I assure you I could definitely say no. I will be pleased but surprised if TPTB address Wilson asking House to do the procedure in S5. I expect it won't be mentioned at all. House isn't the type to pull a guilt trip over it, and he and Wilson don't talk about such things. I would really like some acknowledgement from Wilson, because the way the scene was played he seemed to understand the enormity of what House was doing for him, but I don't think we'll get it. They just seem to accept the sacrifices they make for each other. Remember the famous apology in W&D: House apologized (that we saw) for blaming Wilson for the deal, but not for the crap he put Wilson through before that. Neither seemed to think it necessary. House was willing to potentially die for Wilson. There's a difference there. Being willing to lose your job and give up your freedom for someone is HUGE. It's enormous actually. But whether everybody wants to try to calculate the actual chance of House dying from that procedure or not the point is that he totally could have died. Maybe the possibility or probability or whatever was low...but the chance was there. So he was willing to give his life if that's what it came to and that's even more enormous...can't work or have freedom at all if you're dead!! Honestly, I would have to say that Wilson's sacrifices - all of them, not just that - are still bigger. Living for someone is harder than dying for them. And for all those debating who loves who more in their relationship, do we have to bring RSL in here to tell you about King Lear? I just remembered that in 'Hunting' the father and son were estranged because the father blamed the son for his mother's death. She needed an organ transplant and the son couldn't donate because his P&P lifestyle had left him infected with HIV. He didn't do that deliberately and I daresay most people would argue that the father shouldn't blame him. But he did, and here's the kicker: the son blamed himself too. Explains the writers' mindset. I think House will have a lot to think about because Amber's death is symbolic of how his actions affect other people, as Dr Spaceman said. Amber died because of a chain of events set in motion by House getting drunk in a bar and calling Wilson to rescue him. No it's not House's fault, there's no way he could have known they'd get into a bus crash, I'm not saying that. It simply shows that, unlike Volger and Tritter, House's recklessness can have consequences and this time they were fatal. It also shows that any woman who gets between House and Wilson is literally destroyed! Remember at the end of HH we were wondering how Wilson could have gone home and not wondered where Amber was? Now we know: he didn't go home. If he had he would have found the note on the bed before. He must have spent the night at the hospital. does anyone else wonder if House (or any of the staff) might have figured out Amber's flu meds without the DBS? House and Dr. Buffer put together the patient's medical history in 'Alone' with the wrong chart, I think House could have figured out Amber's flu and flu meds theoretically. But he didn't.

I don't see why it needs to be a first or second place thing. The way Wilson feels for the two of them isn't one more than the other, but one different. This POV, to me at least, trivializes the risks to House's brain (as well as life) in order to excuse Wilson. There was a probability of brain damage (which happened), and I think for House losing his cognitive skills would be a fate worse than death. Maybe the risk of death wasn't as high (it was skill there), but House risking either is huge. (transcripted the scene for reference) Wilson: Cuddy's right, I was afraid to do anything. I thought, if everything just stopped, we'd be okay. House: It's gonna be. Taub's starting the treatment, we're doing everything -- Wilson: Not everything. Before you warm her up, you said you wanted to try deep brain stimulation House: There's no reason, we know the symptom, we know what I saw Wilson: What if it's not the rash? What if you noticed the rash in the ambulance or when we were putting her on bypass? What if there is still something else stuck inside your head? House: You think I should risk my life to save Amber's? Wilson: (nods yes) House: (exhales) (nods in consent) He was in a lot of emotional trauma, but he was clear-headed enough to say exactly what he knew would get House to agree, and they both knew the kind of shape House was in. This was probably one of the worst days of Wilson's life, but arguing temporary insanity on Wilson's behalf is a bit ridiculous when you look at his skills for manipulation here. House cut through the bs with his direct question. Wilson said yes. Wilson knew the risks. Wilson would rather brain damage House than have Amber dead. That's incredibly selfish. 1) Dead people don't care that they're dead. Friends and family are the ones that do the missing. This is especially true in the case of a sudden death like Amber's (which is to say, living people care if they're about to die). Ergo, saving Amber is all about Wilson preserving his own happiness. 2) Brain damaged people, if they retain some degree of self-awareness still, DO care that they are brain-damaged. This would be even more so for House, because we know from No Reason, all he thinks he has to offer is his brain. Wilson asked House to risk a fate worse than death to prevent a lesser fate from happening to Amber. I think it's safe to save that Amber trumped House in the last couple months. Honestly, I would have to say that Wilson's sacrifices - all of them, not just that - are still bigger. Living for someone is harder than dying for them. Good point. I think the thing (well, one of many) to learn from this about Wilson is that he is capable of putting an SO ahead of House, at least in the beginning. Would Wilson have been willing to go to jail for House were he in the honeymoon phase of a relationship? Until now I would've assumed so, but it's hard to say.

... I'm quoting this part because, I just want to say, in a general sense, when someone you love is dying? Selfishness is human and understandable for me. Like I said, I'm not trying to get into the specifics of Wilson's actions (except to say that once the grieving is over I'll be upset if he's not appalled that he asked it of House). Just that, someone being selfish in a situation like that? Doesn't surprise me in the least. And, maybe not everyone would be selfish, but I can't be hard on those who are. There are times in life where being selfish is not only excuseable, but the right way to go. I'm still working out whether I feel Wilson was justified in being selfish here (though in large part because I don't think Wilson and Amber would've worked out, I lean toward no.) The point of pointing out that he was being selfish is that, in an extreme situation, his baser, more self-serving drives told him to save Amber and sacrifice House. This leads me to conclude that Amber was more important to him. So, those times he sacrificed for House, what motivates those? If House was the most important person in his life at those times, then those extreme measures were also selfish (preserve the friendship to maintain some level of happiness). If he sacrificed for House when he was still in the honeymoon phase with one of his exes (wherein SO trumps House), what motivated that? Guilt? Feeling that House is more important to society as a diagnostician? etc. Though based on Wilson's Heart, we don't have reason to believe that Wilson would put House first during the beginning of a relationship. Please let the code work this time...

I'm saying that Wilson had the choice of allowing Amber to get warmed up, with the risk but not certainty that the diagnosis would be wrong, or asking House to risk his life--and really risk it... Okay jair, I am willing to admit that at the time, Wilson was willing to *risk* House more than he was willing to *risk* Amber...but I am afraid that is as far as I can go, and at that point we must part ways when it comes to interpretation of motivations here. :D Whatever the reasoning behind the choices, please oh PLEASE let the show actually DEAL with the issues in some way! There is so much potential for deep reveals here... BTW, just a general shout out. I don't think it quite Kosher to suggest that the reason House did not die from the *fatal* DBS was because it is obviously HL and they need him for season 5. If we allow *that* line of arguement, then everything House has done in the show becomes meaningless - and his willingness to sacrifice himself to try and save Amber (which is HUGE) is also meaningless because he obviously wasn't at risk at all.... And I agree with the idea that Wilson was being selfish when he decided to risk House to save Amber. He wants to eat his cake and have it too... However, I find that a very believable human reaction under the circumstances. *HOPE* is a strong motivational force, and sometimes it is all we have.

I would really like some acknowledgement from Wilson, because the way the scene was played he seemed to understand the enormity of what House was doing for him, but I don't think we'll get it. You make a good argument with the reasons why it might not get mentioned again. I remember being very disappointed with House's apology in W&D but in time I appreciated it more and more. I agree that House won't lay a guilt trip on Wilson about it but it could still eat away at him. I don't think Wilson's thinking clearly right now, I think he's wrapped up in his grief, which yes is selfish he wants Amber back, why is that a bad thing? Wouldn't we all want someone we love back, especially one taken away so suddenly? BUT, I personally would be satisfied if Wilson just said something like, "I know you did everything possible to save her." To me, that's acknowledgement and a way to absolve House of any blame on Wilson's end, YMMV.

I think House will have a lot to think about because Amber's death is symbolic of how his actions affect other people, as Dr Spaceman said. Amber died because of a chain of events set in motion by House getting drunk in a bar and calling Wilson to rescue him. No it's not House's fault, there's no way he could have known they'd get into a bus crash, I'm not saying that. It simply shows that, unlike Volger and Tritter, House's recklessness can have consequences and this time they were fatal. It also shows that any woman who gets between House and Wilson is literally destroyed! I have a problem with this way of viewing the situation, because it seems to me that you are both saying that there was no way House could have foreseen the bus crash but at the same time he should take responsibility for it. Although House at present has survivor's guilt on top of his already shaky sense of personal self-worth, survivor's guilt is not rational and not to be encouraged by people who care about the person with it. There are certain actions that if House had taken, the injury to Amber would have been reasonably foreseeable and therefore he should view them as consequences of his actions: if he'd insisted on driving drunk and become involved that way; if he's been so drunk and argumentative he'd accidentally directly physically involved her in the crash. He'd have been morally complicit in breaking Wilson's heart if the reason House and Amber had been in the bar was to initiate an affair. House did none of those things. He called his best friend for a ride. The reasonable foreseeable negative consequence to that was Wilson and/or Amber drawing a line to say "no more," and saying that he can't call on Wilson that way any more. And House would certainly deserve that consequence. But to say he should now see that his actions have consequences suggests he should have foreseen that his phone call would lead to a bus crash just as Amber took the amantidine. He should see a causal relationship where none exists and his survivor's guilt is rational. Where does one stop with that kind of thinking? If Wilson had called Amber to the hospital and she got involved in the bus crash by being directly behind the bus in her car, would Wilson be responsible and should he castigate himself for either bothering her with the request or his own working late instead of being at home? If Amber had had a fight with her mom on the phone and that made her feel the headache especially badly so she took the amantidine, would her mom be to blame for her death because they had a fight? House's actions were no more "causal" of the accident. He didn't even call Amber to the bar--she made her own decision to come and get him. just a general shout out. I don't think it quite Kosher to suggest that the reason House did not die from the *fatal* DBS was because it is obviously HL and they need him for season 5. If we allow *that* line of arguement, then everything House has done in the show becomes meaningless - and his willingness to sacrifice himself to try and save Amber (which is HUGE) is also meaningless because he obviously wasn't at risk at all.... I think we may have a crossed line of communication here :D , because my point (and I know you may not have been specifically addressing it) is that saying that there's no need to see what House did as risking his life, despite the dialogue saying it was risking his life, because it obviously wasn't fatal, is sidestepping Houseverse reality for showrunning reality. In the show, no one knew House would survive his injuries or that if he did, he wouldn't have massive brain damage. That was the risk factor House and Wilson were dealing with. It sounds like actually we were making the same point without realising it :D . I'm quoting this part because, I just want to say, in a general sense, when someone you love is dying? Selfishness is human and understandable for me. Like I said, I'm not trying to get into the specifics of Wilson's actions (except to say that once the grieving is over I'll be upset if he's not appalled that he asked it of House). Just that, someone being selfish in a situation like that? Doesn't surprise me in the least. And, maybe not everyone would be selfish, but I can't be hard on those who are. Since there seem to be many variations on position here, I'd like to say that I don't think Wilson was supposed to be horrible or evil here. He absolutely is allowed to put Amber first. My point is that he did do this and doing so changed his relationship to House and that House was shocked Wilson would ask him to risk his life for Amber's. I also suspect that Wilson will not be appalled at what he asked of House. I think he'll blame House for the crash and eventually be able to let that go. I do think the writers were wrapping up the "slash" issues they allowed to come to the surface this year. Which is what I mean when I say to me the consequences of what we saw are that when the dust settles, Wilson needs to keep the boundaries he was drawing in his life for House, so he can find another person who makes him feel like Amber, and House needs to leave space in his life for someone else to make him feel he comes first. I know the writers are going to bring the boys back together, but I don't see how they can bring them together without far clearer boundaries in their lives. Which is a major change from before the finale. Given that this is how I see it, it warmed my heart far more than I thought it would that Cuddy was there for House. Since I believe that she is not only his long time good friend, but also loves him, I'm hoping she can help him get past that survivor's guilt. The problem with House and Cuddy for me is that her role as boss so clearly constrains anything that can happen between them, it's difficult to get invested in the story line even though I believe the feelings. House and Wilson always seemed to me to be the one pairing that could happen and stay true to the show. Perhaps the writers will surprise me--they've done it before--and show me how to get invested in what these two can bring to the other.

BUT, I personally would be satisfied if Wilson just said something like, "I know you did everything possible to save her." To me, that's acknowledgement and a way to absolve House of any blame on Wilson's end, YMMV. And I'd like him to take responsibility for putting House in an impossible situation when House was "barely coherent": "risk your own life by putting your already injured brain through a potentially fatal, dangerous procedure to make absolutely sure you're right about your diagnosis of my girlfriend or, should she die, I will never forgive you for putting her in the situation that cost her her life and for not risking your life to possibly save hers." That's how I read House's perception of what Wilson was asking him to do. House has his responsibility for what he did and how he put into play a chain of circumstances that inadvertently resulted with Amber's death, but Wilson also has his responsibility for what he put House through: it's messy, not black and white, and I don't feel a need to blame or absolve either one of them. Blame is too easy for what happened here. I think there's too much and it's too complicated for anyone's apology to suffice. At this point, I don't know how they could even stand to look at each other with all the pain and injury they've gone through. Looking at what happened as a real-life situation (rather than as a tv viewer knowing that somehow the writers will find a way for them to get through this and they will have some sort of new way of dealing with each other: "series-changing," said DS) I would think they'd never want to see each other again and Wilson would quit or just leave PPTH and start over somewhere else, while House would return to never seeing patients and isolating himself as much as he could. It's that devastating and that complex. eta: edit first sentence