I can see I'm very much in the minority in that I didn't really like the episode. The Amber/Wilson relationship started as a shock/gimmick, then became a rather cartoonish or exaggerated plot element. For me, the relationship as presented didn't merit this type of emotional payoff, so I feel manipulated. Actually I was really enjoying last week up until the moment you find out Amber is the patient in danger. As soon as I saw that, it went flat, because I could see the melodramatic handwriting on the wall. I also resent the writers binding this additional burden on House. Like he doesn't have enough to contend with, they make him the bad guy. He will indeed feel guilty for the rest of his life. And it all seems like such a put-up job. Then the added bonus of giving 13 a horrible death sentence. It's too much. Rarely have I felt so depressed after watching any episode of a TV show. And after all the shenanigans of S4. How about a little balance? Having said that, the death scene was very well-acted.

Also that House realizing that to be the case felt defeated and resigned to doing what Wilson wanted even though House thought there was no reason to have the procedure and that Wilson was unconcerned about the effects on House and only focused on what might be learned to help Amber, I disagree on all of that. Well, I don't recall anyone saying House felt defeated and resigned. I believe the perception is that once he decided to do it, he was committed and stepped right up. It was the moment before he decided, when he weighed what was being asked and what it meant and made sure that WIlson understood what he was asking: that was the critical point. I also don't recall anyone saying Wilson was unconcerned about the effects on House: I believe I said he hadn't thought about it in depth. But yes, I do think he was focused on Amber and not focused on potential danger to House. My intention was not to make anyone all good or all bad here, I don't want to demonize or make a martyr of either one of them. It's way more complicated than that. And the choices they made and how they deal with them will be at the crux of what happens in S5. I'll be fascinated to see where they go with this.

Interesting bit I noticed... between these two episodes, with the exception of Thirteen, every single one of the regular characters (even the unconscious/dying one) expresses some concern for House's well-being at some point. Except for Cuddy during the coma, it mostly comes across as exasperation rather than concern, but still... It's interesting Bedawyn that you say the request itself puts the relationship in a new light. I'm not sure what you mean by that, I'd love to hear what you think. It's been discussed earlier in the thread, and I'm not sure what I could say that hasn't been already. At least, at 2 in the morning I'm not. Maybe I'll try again when I'm actually awake.

Both House and Wilson want the procedure to work because they both want the answers they hope to find. To pretend that the answers are only for Wilson's benefit and not something that House also needs, even if he's afraid to face them, is to ignore House questioning himself for the whole episode about all that he can't remember regarding the night, his time with Amber and the accident. If the treatment they were giving Amber didn't work and she died, without the DBS House may never have known the truth. It was for his benefit as well. I wish I could quote them all, but just WORD to your entire posts, filex.

Jair wrote: Do you mean you think that House owes sacrificing his life to Wilson and if he had refused to risk his life, he would be the one breaking the friendship? No, House doesn't owes anything to Wilson. And I don't think Wilson asked him because he thinks he does. If Wilson didn't ask the doubt about what could have happened would poison their relationship. Wilson wouldn't forgive himself for not trusting House's friendship, for didn't ask for what he wanted at that moment. If House didn't agree he also wouldn't forgive himself for not doing everything he could, and for not remember all that happened. The doubts from both sides would keep them apart. Of course there will be misunderstandings in their future, but both of them will know that everything was humanly possible to be done, was done. You can overcome the bitterness and the loss, but not the doubt and the distrust. I think what may instead happen is that House might start to look at what responsibility he does have, not in Amber's death where it was all bad luck and circumstances, but in his life and the lives of the people around him. He says he doesn’t want to be miserable, he doesn’t want to be in pain, he doesn’t want Wilson to hate him. What is House’s part in his misery, his pain and whatever feelings Wilson will have now towards him and what if anything is House willing to try and do to change that. House has said that people can change they just don't. Maybe now we’ll see what House can do for himself and the people around him starting with Wilson and hopefully it won't have to include any risky surgical procedures. filey, I :heart: all your posts and would be so good to see something like this to happen on the show...

If Wilson didn't ask the doubt about what could have happened would poison their relationship. Wilson wouldn't forgive himself for not trusting House's friendship, for didn't ask for what he wanted at that moment. If House didn't agree he also wouldn't forgive himself for not doing everything he could, and for not remember all that happened. I agree. I think if Amber had died without a diagnosis, House would never forgive himself for not trying the DBS. Sure at the time Wilson asked he said it wasn't necessary but that diagnosis would have been wrong and warming her up then would have killed her and he would not have known why and Wilson would definately hate him for not listening to him. And if Wilson had been to afraid to ask House to try the DBS he would not have forgiven himself for not doing everything possilbe. He would hate himself for being a coward. They were really stuck between a rock and a hard place here. Even putting the diagnosis aside, if Amber had died without House being able to remember why they were together, he would always doubt that he had an affair with her and Wilson would always be suspicious and wonder.

I agree. I think if Amber had died without a diagnosis, House would never forgive himself for not trying the DBS. Sure at the time Wilson asked he said it wasn't necessary but that diagnosis would have been wrong and warming her up then would have killed her and he would not have known why and Wilson would definately hate him for not listening to him. And if Wilson had been to afraid to ask House to try the DBS he would not have forgiven himself for not doing everything possilbe. He would hate himself for being a coward. They were really stuck between a rock and a hard place here. Even putting the diagnosis aside, if Amber had died without House being able to remember why they were together, he would always doubt that he had an affair with her and Wilson would always be suspicious and wonder. I agree that House would want to know the diagnosis, and that once he committed to the DBS, he was prepared to go all the way, and that all the issues you mention are there. But in terms of what lingers on in relationships, I don't think one way had issues and the other didn't. If House had offered himself to do the DBS, then I think the issues you mention would be the only ones on the table. But Wilson asked him. We saw that House found that significant. House and Wilson found out a lot about their relationship last ep and not all of it was positive. Wilson was prepared to doubt House's fidelity to their friendship and he was prepared to risk House's life for Amber's. House has always been prepared to risk himself for the answer to puzzle, but this time, he was prepared to sacrifice himself for Wilson, because at the time of asking, he wasn't pushing for the DBS himself. I don't dispute that House always wants the answer and that he wanted to know about those missing hours on a number of levels. But nevertheless, he also now knows that Wilson puts Amber first in his heart. We saw that Wilson and House have different boundaries to their friendship. That doesn't make Wilson a bad guy, someone to be hated, etc. It just means that he and House do not have the special bond I think House thought they did. They're good friends, but it's Amber who Wilson felt complete with. Again, that doesn't make him anything negative at all. He can fall in love with anyone who makes him feel that way. But House I think does feel complete with Wilson. Now he has to deal with what he knows. Wilson has to figure out how to keep his boundaries with House in place so he can find someone else to feel complete with. It's a new place. It makes me unhappy, because I had been feeling Wilson and House needed each other most of all. But I suppose it will be good drama watching House first look outward to explore other relationships and finally realise he really is alone. But sad. Sigh.

I dunno. I can see I'm in the minority here, so I'll just propose this: suspicious and wondering vs. big possiblity of death or brain damage = no way suspicious and wondering + my friend will hate me vs. big possibility of death or b.d. = no way, but hell, I should have died in the crash and feel huge guilt so what the hell I don't deserve to live so yeah And if it's true that "Wilson would definitely hate him for not listening to him" then Wilson's not much of a friend (since I do think they would have found out what killed her and they would have found out nothing they did would have helped, House is that obsessive), and not worth dying for. But then, I don't think Wilson thought that at all. He wasn't thinking he was grasping at straws, insisting, pushing everyone around him into making unconsidered decisions. Cuddy was right. He was a family member, not a doctor at that moment. None of the docs should have listened to him and Foreman and Cuddy knew that. But House and House's guilt were the weak link in the chain and that's where Wilson struck. Because he was crazy with grief, irrational, blinded by emotion, not because he was a bad person. I do absolutely agree that they were stuck betwen a rock and a hard place here. And that they made life-altering choices in the blink of an eye. Choices which reflected their true priorities and the realities of their friendship. And that they will have to live with what they did there as part of the tragic chain of circumstances that took them out of their daily routines that will have repercussions for the rest of their lives. As we all do with every choice we make.

I still really think Wilson needs House as much as House needs him. Why not cut ties when House is making a pest of himself in the relationship with Amber if she was all encompassing? Wilson can't ever sever that bond with House. Wilson, flush with happy chemicals from the early stages of love even then accommodates House's whims and antics. Asking House to do the DBS was a desperate act that to my mind was not a true measure how much he would value one loved one over another.

I don't see this as Wilson putting Amber before House or Wilson feeling more "complete" with Amber than with House. I think it's as simple as this: House has taken very very stupid risks with his own life in the past, often for reasons far less noble than saving another human being's life. For example, he gave himself a migraine and then took an illegal/unapproved migraine drug as a "test," all in an effort to distract himself from the loss of Stacy. When the drug didn't work, he dropped acid and an antidepressant to relieve the migraine. He stuck a knife into an outlet... I'm still not certain why. To check again on the existence of an afterlife? Whatever. That was not a noble risk either. Now, in real life, I don't condone people taking stupid risks with their lives. But this is a fictional character, so my standards are different. Within the framework of all this (House and his risky behaviors), it would have been really crappy of House NOT to do the deep-brain stimulation in this case. I can just imagine Wilson's reasoning on this: "You've been willing to risk your life in the past for reasons that had nothing to do with saving a human life. And now you refuse to risk your life in an effort to save Amber, the woman I love?" Now, of course it's not cool to expect your friend to risk his life to save your girlfriend. And I don't think Wilson expected House to do it; I think Wilson was just desperate. And honestly, doesn't it seem like House enjoys taking risks and doing crazy things? Between that and House's love/commitment to Wilson, I'm not surprised that he barely hesitated and said yes to this. And I also don't see Wilson as angry at House at the end of the episode. I think that, intellectually, he realizes that House is not at fault. But emotionally, he will have a hard time disentangling the fact that House was involved with Amber's death.

Now, in real life, I don't condone people taking stupid risks with their lives. But this is a fictional character, so my standards are different. Within the framework of all this (House and his risky behaviors), it would have been really crappy of House NOT to do the deep-brain stimulation in this case. I can just imagine Wilson's reasoning on this: "You've been willing to risk your life in the past for reasons that had nothing to do with saving a human life. And now you refuse to risk your life in an effort to save Amber, the woman I love?" Now, of course it's not cool to expect your friend to risk his life to save your girlfriend. And I don't think Wilson expected House to do it; I think Wilson was just desperate. And honestly, doesn't it seem like House enjoys taking risks and doing crazy things? Well, to me, if Wilson thinks House owes him his life because of the risks House has taken on his own behalf in the past, then Wilson has serious issues that he'd better have to face. House didn't owe him his life. He could offer it, but he didn't owe it. And in this instance, we saw that House was not going out of his way to risk his life. He said no to Kutner's suggestion that he retry the alzheimer's drug because the chance that it would kill him was so high. Clearly, he didn't think he'd enjoy that. He wasn't going to do the DBS in order to clear up the missing hours alone, because of the risk involved. He doesn't offer it and when Wilson proposes it, he says there's no need because they have a diagnosis. So he's not in the mental territory of enjoying taking risks for their own sake here, and I don't think he was in the past, either. I think he always has a reason for what he does, and they make sense to him. Within the framework of all this (House and his risky behaviors), it would have been really crappy of House NOT to do the deep-brain stimulation in this case. This part I really don't see. It would be really crappy of House to value his own life more than Amber's? He owes it to Wilson to put himself in a possibly fatal coma and risk major brain damage? Because he is worth less as a person than Amber due to his own issues? I don't think he is. If House offers to risk his life, that's his business and there's lots of reasons, both positive and negative, that he would. But to think he has no right to protect his own life and he'd be a crappy person if he did because he's risked his life in other circumstances takes away his own right to value his life. Are we going to weigh whether Amber was worthy of Wilson's love and protection? She's spent most of her life as cut-throat bitch, manipulating, cheating, lying to get ahead. She's never had a good relationship before Wilson, because she thought she had to choose between love and respect. Even with Wilson and notwithstanding she was learning how to make her relationship work in a way that was positive for Wilson, she hid from him that she took speed, diet pills and anti-depressants. Amber's similarities to House were very marked from the beginning. Is her life therefore worth less than someone without those issues? Wilson didn't think so (nor do I). Neither is House's. Wilson chose with his heart, not because there's a logical reason House owes him his life.

Wilson was prepared to doubt House's fidelity to their friendship House himself was doubting his fidelity to their friendship. If House can't even convince himself that he would never hurt Wilson like that, how is Wilson supposed to be convinced? Besides I didn't see Wilson making that big a deal over it, I remember him making two comments about it and neither one was a direct accusation. It just means that he and House do not have the special bond I think House thought they did. They're good friends, but it's Amber who Wilson felt complete with. You really believe that they don't have a special bond? If Wilson felt so complete with Amber, then why not cut ties with House immediately? Why keep hanging out with him at all? House causes him a lot of grief, if Amber was his escape from that then Wilson would not have continued to hang out with House and he would not have been so concerned in House's Head. If he feels complete with Amber then there's no need for House anymore. If he's getting everything good that he gets out of his relationship with House with Amber then again, there's no need to be friends with House but he made no move nor gave any indication that he's interested in ending their friendship. And I also don't see Wilson as angry at House at the end of the episode. I think that, intellectually, he realizes that House is not at fault. But emotionally, he will have a hard time disentangling the fact that House was involved with Amber's death. ITA, sure Wilson's angry at the situation, (who wouldn't be? It was a senseless accident that could have been avoided if any one of the dozens of decisions made leading up to it had been different) and he's probably angry at House in an irrational way. But I think he knows that this was an accident, but he's grieving and if House had not been getting drunk and attempting to get Wilson to come and deal with his problems, none of it would have happened and Wilson's not going to be able to just ignore that fact. It's hard to separate what you know from what you feel and emotions are extremely powerful. Asking House to do the DBS was a desperate act that to my mind was not a true measure how much he would value one loved one over another. Agreed. If House and Amber had both been in the same situation and Wilson was only able to save one and then he chose Amber, then I would look at it differently, but this wasn't like that. Amber's threat was very real and very serious and it was happening fast. I don't think Wilson was really expecting House to die, I think he had to hope for the best otherwise he could not have gotten himself through it.

Asking House to do the DBS was a desperate act that to my mind was not a true measure how much he would value one loved one over another. I'm not sure what circumstances would give one a better measure than asking one person to risk his life in order to save the other person. It's pretty clear that Wilson thinks if he has to end up with only one of these people in his life, he chooses Amber. Of course, he doesn't want to be making this choice and he's got no good choice to make. But he does make the choice.