At LAST! I do love having the transcripts and this has been much missed. Huge thanks to the people who do the transcribing. It must be a helluva job.

So shouldn't David Shore get the error for that ep? Doris Egan wrote it, I guess she should get the error.

I guess in a way, this was the one episode that really bothered me. House was directly responsible for the death of the patient. Not that he really saw that it was endocarditis, and S. aureus should have grown in a culture (which he never orders, ever), but I'd like to think that he would have eventually figured it out, sometime around the congestive heart failure. Damn him for listening to Foreman.

That's the thing though! House has done the exact same thing two times that we know of, in 'Deception' and 'Who's Your Daddy?". In the first case he figured it out in time, in the second a new symptom presented before the radiation treatment was completed. In this case the new symptom didn't show up in time. If House kept irradiating everyone this was bound to happen.

But House was against radiation. Chase and Cameron were pushing auto-immune and Foreman was arguing that it would suppress the immune system anyway. House wasn't decided, but because he listened to Foreman, he went ahead and irradiated. I looked up Foreman's diagnosis by the way--doesn't even come near fitting the symptoms! The medicine in this show was way off. TIA creates a differential COMPLETELY different from what they set up. House makes a lot of close calls, by sheer probability he'd have to come too close once in a while. But the problem is that this shouldn't even have been CLOSE! It should have been solved within half an hour. Cameron did her bubble study, end of story. TPTB, you get an error!

Just a tidbit I wanted to bring up. I settled down today to read Beggarman, Thief by 2ndary_author and at the beginning she uses a quote: When a doctor does go wrong, he is the first of criminals. He has nerve and he has knowledge. Is "doctor does go wrong" the source for "Hector does go rug"? I know it's a stretch, but since there's a doctor connection, a Holmes connection, and the fact that they kinda rhyme, I'd love it to be true. This is the only other place I've seen that strange "does go" construction. If it is true, I've gained sort of a level of respect for Bonnie for having the wit to use a combination anagram, literary reference, and personal insult to name her dog. It would increase my level of respect for Doris Egan if it wasn't at an all-time high to begin with. Anyway.

See what happens when Foreman gets listened to? People die.

I brought this discussion from the Season Four thread: Jair wrote: Quote: House already tried the same procedure twice before (Deception and Who's Your Daddy). He stopped moments before being too late. He risks treatments, so at some point, things must go wrong. He is not a God, he is a genius (sometimes I have doubts, but ok, he is), but he is human and in that way susceptible to fail. Lully, I have no issue with House trying radical treatments. The issue I have with House's actions in that ep is that he was not focused on the patient, took very little part in the DDX and didn't think about whether anyone had checked for sores. He just wasn't engaged--there at least. He was very engaged with Wilson and Cuddy. I don't think we saw that type of behaviour before. I think he was far more engaged with the patients during this last arc, including Stark, because he was monitoring the medicine and he didn't incapacitate himself until he thought he knew for sure that there was nothing more he could offer Stark. The wild card there was 13 not actually administering the medicine House thought was the key to his original diagnosis, which isn't his own attention slipping, so much as 13's. I don't see the willingness to play games to be particularly different than his willingness to play a game of revenge on VL during a case. House plays games. I can see why this is an issue, and my only disagreement is to put the blame on Wilson and the AD's. There's nothing in the episode to support that theory. House's speech to Foreman at the end showed he knows how a risk his approach to medicine and treatments can be for the patient. If House had suspected he was being dosed, the situation would be clear, like it was in Resignation, and I don't believe House would be playful about a patient's death. House is responsible for his own actions, we can't put the blame of House's faults in other people all the time, he is not a little child, if he was distracted by Wilson and Cuddy, he is still the one to be blamed - and, mind you, I don't really blame him about Lupe's death...

If House had suspected he was being dosed, the situation would be clear, like it was in Resignation, and I don't believe House would be playful about a patient's death. That's the thing to me too. House knew he wasn't thinking clearly in "Resignation." He also knew, in the fourth season's "Ugly" that he wasn't thinking clearly when it came to Terzi. He recognizes when his thought process goes awry, so why wouldn't he this time? I think a part of me wishes that I could blame the ADs, because then House would have an excuse for making a mistake, but I believe that it's important to prove that House is fallible. He makes mistakes. He doesn't belong on a pedestal. I think it's important to acknowledge that he's not always going to be right, and that there isn't always going to be someone out there to stop him when he does make one, as Chase did in "Finding Judas."

The difference is, the medication caused his thinking to be hazy. This wasn't just him being spellbound by some hot chick. Medication has a stronger effect on a man's body than a hot chick does. :wink: Even House's body and mind are powerless against the side effects of medications. And in HT, he doesn't know he is taking the meds, and he has no reason to suspect he is being dosed. The fact that his thinking is hazy prevents him from realizing that his thinking is hazy. To copy-paste what I wrote in the other thread: If he just started taking the ADs in HT, the meds certainly could have made him hazy or distracted without his realizing it. That's the point... being hazy means you're not on your top-game. It was only two episodes later, when Wilson refused to give him the ADs, that House put it all together. "Hmmm... he didn't want to give me the ADs so I could prove I'm not depressed... he used a lame excuse about seeing a psychiatrist... he knows I'd never go see a psychiatrist... and holy crap I have been off my game the past couple weeks.... and crap, I just smiled when I told the patient she's dying... something is way way off here... Wilson must be dosing me, and he didn't want me double-dosing. That's why he didn't give me any when I asked..." The fact that House was so disengaged from Lupe's case—he was extremely aloof and uninterested—is the big clue that something is terribly off with House.

The fact that House was so disengaged from Lupe's case—he was extremely aloof and uninterested—is the big clue that something is terribly off with House. I could buy that argument if we went straight from "House Training" to "Resignation," but there's another case in between -- "Family," in which House is thinking just fine and in fact it involves Wilson's patient. Wilson knows he's dosing House, so when it's a matter of life and death, why would he just blithely let House get away with such risky behavior without warning him? Unless Wilson really is as crappy of a doctor as some people seem to think.

IMO, in "Family," House was still acting a little strange. All the stuff with Hector and the Vicodin, his non-reaction upon waking up and seeing Hector had chewed half his stuff, leaving his apartment door open so Hector would escape, slamming the door on Hector and smiling when Hector got hurt, etc. It was bizarre even for House. His attitude toward the parents was a little colder than usual too, I thought. But that's just me.

Medication has a stronger effect on a man's body than a hot chick does. Wanna bet? :wink: NightOwl, House thought he was being "hazy" in Resignation, not in HT. He was more interested in W/Cuddy? He was distracted by Bonnie's confidences? It's possible, but I don't think he was more detached from the case than he was in Fools for Love. The big difference was at the end of HT, we didn't get the last minute right diagnose. And the patient died. He trusted Foreman's skills and both of them were wrong. Because they are human beings, they are fallible. It's ok if you believe in your personal canon that House is perfect and can do no wrong, but it was not the case here. And we can't blame others for his own mistakes.